45 ACP Deer and HD loads

[gdcpony]

This week I found a Glock 22 that was new last October for $350. Hell of a deal, but I hate Glocks, so I call my brother up who I knew was wanting a .40. He has my old 1911 and I want it back. It was a gift so demanding it would be rude to say the least. We agree to a trade and I will be down to his place this weekend to pick up my old 1911, the dies and all the extra reloading gear I gave him for it. He never used it anyways.

Last load I used in it was some 230gr RN bullets ahead of unique. Nice load, but not what I want this time. I have been searching online and looking for a suitable load since I can only have one (wife rules- one load per gun). I can't decide on a bullet to start with. The pistol has been forgiving of bullet design (minus wadcutters) and weight as far as accuracy goes.

Here's the criteria:

1. 200gr or less to reduce recoil as this will be the wife's HD tool. (I can fake a reduced load as "the same" to her as long as they use the same bullet)

2. Obviously, reliable for HD and field use.

3. Capable of taking a deer at 25-30m with good penetration, but it doesn't need to blow all the way through, just get to the vital and kill.

4. Cannot break the bank in cost of bullet. Which also means trying out a ton of different ones is also out of the question.

I have used plated round noses on yotes and groundhogs in the past with good results, but a deer might be asking a bit much. I am also unfamiliar with how the RN's expanded as I never recovered one out of any of the kills. The wound channels looked ok, but again different animal. While I might be able to play with how they do on paper, once the trigger is pulled on an animal it is not the time to be testing things. So I am asking for input as far as loads and bullets.

Right now these are looking good to me from Powder Valley:
Berry's.45 185 GR HBRN-DS
Berry's .45 200 GR HP

I wonder if the 185's will expand enough for OH deer at the speed they can be loaded to, or if the 200's are the better starting point. I am a sucker for accuracy over power (a good hit with any bullet kills and a bad one with any bullet is still a bad hit, right?) and have heard great things and the 185's in that regard. Or maybe another I haven't considered?

 

[Steve C]

1,000 + fps will generally assure bullet expansion. Unfortunately you can't do that with a 230 or 200gr bullet without running +P in the .45 acp. With a 185gr bullet you can get that velocity quite easily using Unique.

I load 185gr Remington Golden Sabers or regular JHP's on top of 7.7grs of Unique for between 1,060 to 1,092 fps chrono'd from 3 different .45's; a Sig 220, a 1911 Government and a Combat Commander.

 

[glockky]

i would go with185 gr XTP's. I have shot alot of berrys 200 gr. hp's in front of 5.7 gr. of 231 which is pretty hot and after i shot them into a few burning barrels recovered them and i believe i could have loaded them again no expansion.

 

[918v]

185gr HP bullets penetrate 8-10" of tissue. That's not enough for deer. I recommend a 200gr LSWC at 1000 FPS.

 

[gdcpony]

Keep it coming, I am searching as I can on the inputs.

The powder will be Unique

 

[rsrocket1]

6.5g Unique will get you 920 fps in a 5" 1911 with a 200g JHP which can be your regular round.
THEN
For hunting, spend another ~$330 or so to get a Hi Point 45 ACP carbine which will get you 1170 fps for Bambi.
The Hi Point is fugly, but from what I've heard, everyone who has one can't wipe the smile off their faces when they shoot it.

 

[Furncliff]

"""The Hi Point is fugly, but from what I've heard, everyone who has one can't wipe the smile off their faces when they shoot it. """


True-dat. Working on loads for mine right now

 

[rcmodel]

but it doesn't need to blow all the way through, just get to the vital and kill.

The problem with that logic is, deer don't know they are dead until they have run 25 - 150 yards and the brain runs out of oxygen.

Without an exit hole, you will have very little to no blood trail to follow, and you will lose a lot of dead deer in the brush.

I also think going to a light bullet in .45 ACP is counterproductive.
Recoil is subjective, and a fast light bullet can smack you around worse then a heavy slow bullet.
Besides that, if a person can't handle a 230 grain .45 ACP load, they probably have a hold of the wrong gun.

Berry's.45 185 GR HBRN-DS
Berry's .45 200 GR HP

Neither of those bullets are suitable for SD or hunting.
Berry HP's will not expand in any medium, short of a steel plate.
No RN whether lead, plated, or jacketed, will expand in anything either.

Berry makes great practice bullets for punching paper.
But they should never be used for SD or hunting if expansion is expected or desired.


Were it me, I would go with a 230 Hornady XTP loaded over 6.5 grains Unique and call it good.
It stands a better chance of punching on through heavy shoulder bones then a 185 JHP, and might even make a big leak on the off side you can follow to the deer.

BTW: What's up with the wifes "you can only load one load" rule?

Part of the reason for handloading in the first place is being able to tailor the load to the need you have for it.


rc

 

[USSR]

The problem with that logic is, deer don't know they are dead until they have run 25 - 150 yards and the brain runs out of oxygen.

Without an exit hole, you will have very little to no blood trail to follow, and you will lose a lot of dead deer in the brush.

+1. You want an entry and an exit hole with deer. If your load can't do that, then don't try hunting deer with it.

Don

 

[Presto]

If you aren't set on Unique you should take a look at Longshot. Recoil is nasty, but you can launch a 200gr. bullet at well over 1000fps. Save the Unique for the target loads.

 

[rcmodel]

Unique is too slow burning for target loads.

Works best with full power loads.

And I doubt a deer shot with Unique at 984 FPS or longshot at 1,013 FPS could tell you the differance.

rc

 

[Presto]

Normally I use unique in 230gr. ball target loads at 850fps. My guns seem to like this load best. My 185gr. XTP Longshot loads are chronoing at just over 1100 fps and will expand reliably at 20 yards through an actual deer hide. My unique test loads were right at 930 fps and failed to expand occasionally.

 

[GooseGestapo]

For deer, I usually use the 200gr SWC cast bullets. I normally run these from a muzzle/loader over 80-120gr of either 777 or Pyrodex-RS for 1,500-1850fps. However, they will perform similarily from a M1911 at ~1,000fps. The only one I didn't get complete penetration on was a ~175lb 8pt buck that I shot facing me at ~15yds. But, he was DRT, so lack of blood trail was moot.

These also shoot ~2moa from the M/L sabots at 100yds, and 2" @ 25yds from the M1911.

My preferred "warm" load is with 8.6gr AA#5. However, 6.7gr of Universal comes close.

 

[Otto]

The OP states his location is in Ohio and would be using a 1911.
To hunt deer in Ohio, a 1911 Govt model would be legal but a Commander or Officer's model would not.

 

[PO2Hammer]

Plus one to what RC said.

 

[LeonCarr]

For a cheap to shoot deer load, see if you can get 255 SWCs or 250 RNFPs to feed and shoot in your 1911. You can easily get 800-900 fps from them with Unique or W231, and they will go all the way through a deer and probably a hog if you don't hit bone.

If you insist on a 200 grain bullet, a 200 grain lead SWC at 950-1000 fps will work and probably shoot all the way through, but with some practice your wife can handle the 250-255s and get better penetration, which you need in spades shooting a .45 ACP at deer.

The only issue you might have with the heavy for caliber bullets in .45 ACP is they will probably shoot a little high at 25 yards compared to the 230s. But if they are dead on 50 yards, keep them and rock on .

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[RhinoDefense]

For jacketed, a 200gr XTP with 9.5gr HS6 set to 1.225" OAL will give 969fps from a 5 inch 1911. Accurate, controllable, reliable. I've shot and killed deer with heart shots in a BANG-FLOP manner with that load.

The .45 ACP and its JHP bullets were designed to expand at low velocities, so the "1000fps to expand" rule is garbage.

 

[rsrocket1]

One point to bring up is "does it really matter for a 45 bullet to expand". A fully intact .45 going clear through a deer is equivalent to a .30 cal bullet that expands to 1.5x. On top of that, a 230 grain bullet probably has a good chance of blasting its way through bone too.

Secondly, if your boss says "one load per gun" and she is using the 45 ACP for SD, she ought to be using commercial loads, not reloads.

Thirdly if its "one load per gun", you obviously need another gun. That Hi Point 45 ACP Carbine is looking better every minute.

 

[918v]

A 30 cal expanding to 45 inside a deer also delivers 4-5 times more energy and causes tremendous damage to surrounding organs. A 45 from a 45 ACP going through a deer does little damage other than the 45 caliber hole. There is no comparison.

 

[Walkalong]

Correct. A .45 ACP bullet has the diameter, but a .30 cal rifle bullet has a great deal more energy to dump.

 

[gdcpony]

Sorry, I took the family out camping for the holiday.

I think I need to state that I have a limit on what I can use here in OH. Handgun with 5" barrel, OAL of cartridge over 1". No centerfire rifles/carbines. If it was up to me I would be using my .257Roberts, but also illegal.

As far as "needing" an exit wound. Not really needed so much as preferred.. First, I hunt from the ground so the entry hole will be on level not high up on the body. Second, I am a rather experienced bowhunter and am used to tracking deer. Third, to ensure the tracking side of things I have a trailing dog.

On the SD side, would not any bullet really work? If I (actually I have a sword on my side of the bed, but let's say) hit a BG with a 185gr RN, would he not be more down than a bad hit with a 230gr HP? But I get the point were both similar hits.

And also why a commercial load over a handload? That confuses me.

I also get the point about bullet choice. I will get some jacketed HP's for the business rounds and sneak in the plated for practice. Maybe the wife would be sold by the economy of it. Any more good recommendations on a good JHP?

The "one load per gun" rule comes from before we got married. I had about 5 loads per gun and the expense would have killed our family. At the time I was going through about 2000 rounds a month of rifle (.243 and .223 mostly). Explaining to her that this load was for the 500+yd shots, and this one was for predators, and that one is for plinking, and on and on sounded pretty stupid even to me when weighed against school shoes for the kids. So I agreed to it.

In reality, I find I can generally get by with that on rifles as each has its niche. My .223 is for yotes and groundhogs, my .257 would be for deer someday. The 7x57 Ackley (work in progress) will be for some longrange work. Each has a purpose and a load for it. I just never loaded anything for .45 besides 230gr slugs to blow off at the range and use on some close range hunting targets.

 

[harvester]

The theory is using handloads in a shooting may bring legal problems making you look like a "gun nut" out to kill. Don't know if this has happened but it is the popular legal liability avoidance technique today.

 

[Slamfire]

3. Capable of taking a deer at 25-30m with good penetration, but it doesn't need to blow all the way through, just get to the vital and kill.

Deer in the south are lightly constructed, I think the average deer taken is 90 to 120 lbs. Any shot through the lungs or heart should bleed the deer out, but a clean, quick kill is less certain.

Hey, our forefathers shot deer with 30 caliber flintlocks with equivalent KE to a 45 ACP. But their shot placement would have been a lot better with those long barrels. Handguns will kill deer, but field accuracy without a rest is not that good. If you really want to humanely kill deer, use a rifle. Even in the same cartridge your accuracy and hit probability are so much higher.

 

[Sam1911]

The theory is using handloads in a shooting may bring legal problems making you look like a "gun nut" out to kill.

Actually that is one theory, but it isn't really the important one.

The real problem is that with handloaded defense ammunition you lose the ability to provide admissible testing data for things like Gun Shot Residue, which may help your case in some situations. With commercially-loaded ammo you have the manufacturer's believable, credible, repeatable, and well-documented information to fall back on if your defense attorney and/or expert witnesses for the defense need to establish various details to prove your self-defense case.

Any such data needed to be produced from your own handloads would be inadmissible in court as you are the source of that data, your records (however meticulous) are nothing like those of say Hornady or Remington, and -- the primary problem -- you are an interested party to the trial so info provided would be considered "tainted."

See this thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7204540 for the definitive explanation.

 

[gdcpony]

So my loads in my gun could cause legal issues? Never thought of that. Nor do I understand the reasoning. But there are plenty of things I don't understand the reasoning of. None the less, my loads will be in the gun. I will take that chance. Luckily I have never needed to use such and hopefully never will. I imagine the sword would cause as many issues to be honest. I do respect that though and appreciate knowing there may be issues IF I ever need to actually use them.

As far as humane kills with the 45ACP, that I would have to disagree with. I KNOW it will quickly dispatch a deer (car hits around here the deputies use 9mm's) so long as placement is right. I just want the best bullet for the job.

Oh and I am thinking of different powder options too. Something effective in shotshells? slug loads too (I am about to start loading for those too)