.45 ACP with 'Unique' - Density question

[Oyeboten]

I am doing some reloading of .45 ACP, using a Lead Wadcutter Bullet of 230 Grain.

This for a Revolver.

None of my Books have a Loading reference for this Bullet, which is a 'SAECO' #453.


If using 7 Grains 'Unique', I find the base of the Bullet is right on the Powder, or would be, if I were to use the Crimp Groove the Bullet has...if with no compression of the Powder. If there is any Air Gap, it is quite small.


So, I paused to brood on the matter...


What would be a correct Seating Depth for this Bullet in .45 ACP for a moderately full Powder Charge of 'Unique'?

If Crimped in it's Crimp Groove, the Bullet base would seem to be about maybe 1/16th of an Inch lower than where a same weight Hardball Bullet base would be.

Which would be too low, and, hence, too heavy a Powder/Loading density possibly.


Should I hold the Bullet 'up' say, 1/16th of an Inch?

Has anyone any references I could refer to for this Bullet?

 

[918v]

John Taffin loads a 255 LSWC on top of 7grs of Unique for revolvers. This is a +P+ load. Its base is right on top of the powder just like yours. Your load is prolly +P, but not unsafe. You might want to work it up, though.

 

[Oyeboten]

Okeydoky...

I appreciate the mention, thank you!

I will hold the Bullet 'up' an honest 1/16th or so, and crimp there.

 

[strambo]

I'd drop 10% and work up the load crimping in the groove.

 

[Oyeboten]

I strambo,


I was thinking of that also.

This may sound naive, but, how would I work up a Load?


I mean, how would I know where to stop?

Dropping to 6 Grains, and using the Crimp Groove as it is, seems an appealing place to start...but, as far as any up from there, I would not know really what to elect, or, how to judge the results, other than by Chronograph, and, for that, I do not have much for data to use to compare.


I would like a 'Healthy' Cartridge, as healthy as possible...but, not one which is going to be hard on the Revolver.

Revolver is a Colt 'New Service' Snubby, presumed to have begun Life as a Model 1917.

If I just knew where ( exactly ) the Base of other similar weight Bullets would be in the Loaded Cartridge, I could manage well enough I think.

 

[918v]

You know that 7grs is safe under a 255gr LSWC in the S&W. Therefore, working-up from 6 to 7 grains is reasonable. Stop at the first accuracy node between 6 and 7 grains.

 

[Sport45]

Can you get 230gr of lead inside a .45acp case like that without getting into the thicker portion near the base? Or is there more weight above the crimp than I'm imagining?

 

[strambo]

Do you have a chronograph? If not, I'd get one, even a less expensive one. I would think the bullet shape would be unimportant when looking at velocities. Whatever the max velocities listed are for 230g lead bullets, you want to be comfortably under given the same length barrel.

I haven't loaded .45 ACP in a long time but my Lee manual lists 230 g lead Unique loads at (curiously) starting and max 5 g, vel. 790fps (don't know barrel length), min. OAL 1.190
Speer #13 230g lead Unique starting 5.3, max 5.8 vel. 849 and tested COAL of 1.270 (barrel length 4.4").

So...based on those 2 manuals, I'd start at 5g. Maybe load 10 at 5g and 10 at 5.4g and chronograph those so you have a starting point velocity wise. Shoot for about 675-750 fps with a short barrel revolver. Once you have an actual velocity to correlate to "x" grains of powder at "y" OAL in that gun, adjusting it to where you want it is easy.

If the 5g load has a lot of snap and is over 800fps...go down! (and don't shoot the rest). You can't go wrong with a really light charge to start.

 

[Oyeboten]

You know that 7grs is safe under a 255gr LSWC in the S&W. Therefore, working-up from 6 to 7 grains is reasonable. Stop at the first accuracy node between 6 and 7 grains.

Hi 918v,


Any idea how deep the 255 LSWC sits in the .45 ACP Case?


If I just knew how much gap to leave above the 'Unique', for a given Charge, for a given Weight of Lead Bullet, I could figure out where this Bullet ought to be seated.


Looking at pictures of varioud .45 ACP Bullets, one can see where they Crimp, but, I can not tell precisely where their base would be, or, how much distance there is between base and Crimp groove spot.

I am vexed by not having a chart or adjustable ratio model to inform me of Loading Density directly.




Once seeing I would be right about onto the Powder with the Bullet Base, if I used the Crimp Groove the Bullet has, is when I paused...I was expecting more Air Space than that...which was about 'none'.

My 'Dummy Round' in the image, shows what I would have had, if I had kept going.

 

[Slamfire]

A load of 7 grains Unique with a 230 is a heck of a lot hotter than I would ever try.

I like my 230's to be 800 fps or less. This is in consideration of the bashing between slide and frame of a M1911.

Yours is a revolver so this may not be a consideration.

Also, my 230 LRN's are the classic LRN, does not go deep into the case.

Next time I reload 230 L I am going to run tests between 5.0 and 5.5 grains Unique.

[SIZE="3"]
Kimber Custom Classic 5” barrel 


230 LRN Valiant 5.5 grs Unique lot UN331 1989 Mixed brass WLP (brass)	
16-May-09	 high 83  °F		OAL 1.250" taper crimped 0.469"
Ave Vel =	827.4				
Std Dev =	17.63	 	 		 
ES =	85.68				
High = 	871.6				
Low =	785.9				
N =	31				
					
					
230 LRN Valiant 6.0 grs Unique lot 6/21/1998 Mixed brass WLP (nickle)	
16-May-09	 high 83  °F		OAL 1.250" taper crimped 0.469"
Ave Vel =	885				
Std Dev =	16.79	 	 		 
ES =	67.26				
High = 	917.8				
Low =	850.5				
N =	30				
		strong recoil   15' foot ejection	
					
					
					
230 LRN Valiant 6.5 grs Unique lot UN387 6/21/93 Mixed brass WLP 	
18-Mar-07	T = 62 °F		OAL 1.250" taper crimped 0.469"
Ave Vel =	926.4				
Std Dev =	16.64				
ES =	71.16				
High = 	963.4				
Low =	892.3				
N =	32				
	light leading	accurate	centered	hard recoil
		20 foot ejection		[/SIZE]

 

[TCOV]

You should be cautious with Unique powder as it has changed slightly over the years. Alliant Powder, the current manufacturer lists max. load for Unique with 230 gr bullet at well under 7 gr. Their data is online at the Alliant powder site. You should know if you are using data for new or old Unique and if you are using new or old stock Unique. Some reloaders don't see a difference but the manufacturer now lists reduced load data. I would think you should start closer to 5 gr and go from there. I think 7 gr will be a very hot load and certainly not a starting load.

 

[rcmodel]

I disagree that Unique powder has ever changed over the years.

2400 has changed slightly hotter then it was years ago, but not Unique.

The reduction in Alliant data is simply a sign of the kinder gentler world we live in today, and being owned by ATK now.
They don't want to get sued.

But I do agree that 7.0 Unique is probably an overload with a 230 full wadcutter poked that far down in the case.

rc

 

[TCOV]

rcmodel now that you jog my memory I think you are right. I haven't reloaded much lately and just recalled Alliant talking about a change. I look in Lyman #47 handbook and they showed Unique loads maxing out a little over 7 gr but STARTING at 5.5 gr for a 225 gr round nose cast bullet. The OP is trying to start at maximum range with unknown oal spec. The 45acp is a respectable defense round at normal velocity and no need to make it a magnum for an old revolver.
That wadcutter makes a cool looking 45 round.

 

[Oyeboten]

So...Loading Density aside, is 'Unique' more powerful now than it had been?


Or, are the lighter Loadings shown in the newer Loading Handbooks, a deference to what by now are a demographic of Pistols which have aged a good deal since the earlier Loading Tables?


Anyway, I have paused to find out more and make some decisions before Loading any of these.


Thanks everyone for your input..!

 

[TCOV]

As noted in the last two posts I was wrong about the change in Alliant Unique, the change was in Alliant 2400. Your load of 7 gr would be a heavy load and beyond maximum for Alliant data. They show 5.8 gr max for 230 gr roundnose lead with 1.27 oal and 5.4 gr max for 200 gr swc with 1.19 oal. You were talking about a starting load on the max end of the scale. Alliant recomends reducing their max loads by 10% for starters. I would try to develope a load using the crimp groove which will probably be well under 7 gr. Alliant has their load data online. Some may have developed heavy loads for their handguns but do not use their data as your starting load. If you don't have a chronograph and I don't you can tell by flat primers and heavy recoil when you are getting to hot a load. Back off a little and don't wear out a nice old revolver. Since the swc has more bullet in the case I wouldn't go over 5 gr for my first loads and see what that's like.

 

[918v]

Hi 918v,


Any idea how deep the 255 LSWC sits in the .45 ACP Case?

The case mouth is in the middle of the crimp groove. The depth of the base is similar to your bullet. I have shot those and they are very accurate out of a 45 ACP Mountain Gun.

 

[Oyeboten]

Thanks TCOV!


Thanks 918v!



As you can understand, I was trying to consider a Published loading for .45 ACP with a same weight Lead Bullet as mine, then, I felt concerned anout the location of the Crimp Groove my Bullet has, and it's relationship to Loading Density.

My old 'Lyman Handbook' listed a range of from 6.3 to 7.3 of 'Unique' for roughly this Weight Bullet...but, I began to think the Bullets they had in mind would have sat less deeply in the Case than mine does.


I understand that the present day Loading Handbooks tend to have smaller Loadings than the Older Books did.

But, it is still not clear what this means exactly.

My interest is in having an effecient SD Round, in addition to light load Cartridges for Plinking, in that order, hence, my election of 7 Grains, from the spread the Handbook had offered for this weight Bullet.

If I mounted the Bullet upside down, I am sure the 7 Grains would be an unremarkable Loading, pressure wise.

I am glad to 'work up' Loads, but given my Cartridges are all low pressure kinds, I would likely be passing safe limits before seeing any signs anyway.

Seeing as I would have no way of knowing when 'enough is enough', other than by refering to the Loading Tables for this weight Lead Bullet, I saw no point in 'starting' low...and, felt that starting below the Max was a reasonable place to begin, and, to likely stay with.

I just need a better understanding of Loading Density, to have a feel for these small differences in Bullet Seating Depth, and, it's effect on pressure, for a given Bullet weight.


My same 'Lyman' calls for 7.7 Grains of 'Unique' with a 230 Grain Jacketed Bullet, and how far down would that Bullet Seat?

Granted, that is a lot lighter, so, we would expect it to not sit as low I suppose..!

 

[TCOV]

OYEBOTEN there is enough advise in these posts for you to get started. A crude way to judge your loads is to shoot some standard factory hardball and compare recoil feel. Not precise but usuable and you will have a feel for when you go past it. What several people have tried to get you to understand is 7 gr may or may not be ok but it is not a starting load. Standard 45acp loads are certainly self defense capable and there is not really any need to go beyond unless you just like hot loads and increased wear on your handgun. That wadcutter makes a good looking round and should suit your needs without pushing to the max. Just my opinion.

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi TCOV,


Well, I have not shot any of these to tell about recoil.

Same Bullet in .45 Colt Cartridge, same Revolver, with 10 Grains of Unique, gave 842 FPS, and was not a remarkable recoil, or, felt no different than factory Hardball...but, very different Loading Density, of course.

If I had Loading references for my Bullet, I would have a better understanding of how much space there should be, between the base of the Bullet, and, the top of the Powder, for any given Charge listed.

The real question I was trying to ask in this tread, is about Loading Density.


Anyway...thank you!


Thanks very much everyone!


I will be brooding...

 

[Kernel]

Oyeboten,

If you want to better understand the relationship between: Load Density, Seating Depth, and Bullet Length -- brood on this: Some Simplified Interior Ballistics for Handloaders by WM. C. DAVIS, JR.

http://web.archive.org/web/20041126...allisticsonline.com/ballistics/imrpowder.html

Basically, it’s a detailed explanation of Homer Powley’s method of mathematically predicted the performance of handloads. Load Density and Seating Depth plays a key role.

Reading this article, then rereading it a couple of ten times, and really understanding it, turn out to be sort of “Eureka Moment”, for myself. If you’re good at stringing together Excel formulas, these equations can make for a very interesting spreadsheet.

(The way the web page is format is kinda goofy, so, if you want to study it, it’s easiest to just print it out)

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi Kernal,


Wow...like Christmas!!


Thank you...this sounds like just what I need and want.

I know nothing about 'exel' or 'spreadsheets'...I hope they are not necessary to the computations.

I will Print out the Article.

 

[Kernel]

'exel' or 'spreadsheets'...I hope they are not necessary to the computations

Not needed. Justs saves on paper and pencil lead.