.45 auto not penetrating winter clothes?

[traveler106]

I keep a Ruger p345 as my secondary home defense firearm. The first is my Mossberg 500 because I'm better with it, but I'm also good with the .45 and, in a pinch, I can make ready with it faster.

Anyway, I recently read a thread on this site from a few years ago in which the author said that he had heard about .45 ACP not penetrating heavy winter clothes. Now, I don't think that's true. It sounds ridiculous to me that a round used by the military for so many years could be stopped by a down jacket and a couple of sweaters, but I want to check before I make a judgment.

Has anyone every read a documented case of heavy winter clothes stopping a shot from a .45 auto?

Granted, since I live in Oakland, I'm not so worried about home invaders wearing heavy winter clothes, but still.

 

[spotter03]

The U.S. Cavalry had been buying and testing various handguns in the late 1890s and early 20th century. The .45 Colt Single Action Army (SAA) had largely been replaced, even by some double action versions of the same. The Cavalry had fielded some double action revolvers in .38 Long Colt. They determined the .38 caliber round was significantly less effective against determined opponents, such as the warriors encountered in the Moro Rebellion of the Philippine–American War, than the .45 Colt. The current issue rifle at the time, the .30-40 Krag, had also failed to stop Moro warriors effectively;
-these guys dont wear winter clothes...

 

[Pofficer]

.45 ACP round stopped, or failed to penetrate heavy winter clothing? I don't think so. What "the author said he had heard about" may have been the hollow point of a self defense round filling with material from the clothing which hindered or even prevented expansion. In that case the round becomes the equivalent of a FMJ projectile, and under those circumstances I would rather have a .45 than something smaller (say 9mm or .38).

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Anyway, I recently read a thread on this site from a few years ago in which the author said that he had heard about .45 ACP not penetrating heavy winter clothes.

Ask the author if he would be willing to put as many cloths on as he things necessary to stop a 45 ACP round and ask him if he would be willing to test the theory. I'm 100% sure he will not unless there is nothing in his head...

The 1911 and the round invented to shoot in it has been around for over 100 years now and it's popularity is growing, not waning. There is no way that would happen if thick clothing could defeat the bullet.

 

[spotter03]

:banghead:

give the author a re-shoot...

 

[Lucky Derby]

I lived fairly close to Oakland (Sacramento) for 26 years. Before that I lived in Canada, and now live in the Rocky Mountains. No one around Oakland wears anything close to true winter clothing.

That said, a .45 ACP (auto) was designed to replicate the performance of the .45 Colt in a cartridge that would function in a semi-auto pistol. It does this very well. It will do just fine going through any clothing anyone is wearing, short of actual body armor.

 

[midland man]

I bet fmj ammo will penetrate better than hollowpoint as I use fmj ammo in my 25acp as it will penetrate 9in of ballistic gellitin where hollowpoint will only penetrate 4in of ballistic gellitin!

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Total hogwash. It may not expand but it will definitely penetrate.

 

[RustyShackelford]

.45acp pistols....

A .45acp with a factory JHP or milspec 230gr FMJ will be fine for home defense.
The FBI protocol tests show what does what. Look over a few loads to see what works best for your pistol.

Rusty

 

[GBExpat]

Anyway, I recently read a thread on this site from a few years ago in which the author said that he had heard about .45 ACP not penetrating heavy winter clothes. Now, I don't think that's true.

Trust your instincts on this.

 

[BSA1]

Link?

I often say you should test your ammo in your gun by shooting things to determine bullet penetration and expansion.

Take your 45 and your ammo of choice to the range with some old clothing & coats along with some milk jugs filled with water. (You can get old clothing and coats at a local donation center). Line the water filled jugs in a row, cover the front one with however much clothing you are interested in and blast away.

After you complete the tests to your satisfaction, throw the now ruined jugs away and post the results of your tests on THR.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Try this -- stack about ten overcoats on a chair and shoot at them with a .45 ACP. See what happens.

 

[jrdolall]

There are a lot of calibers that I think might have trouble penetrating extremely heavy clothing but the .45 doesn't fit that category. I suppose a person could put on 24" of buffalo hide overcoats and the round might not penetrate but if he can accomplish much wearing 300 pounds of clothing then he is THE MAN.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I know that in the 1880s there was a messianic religion preached by a Piute Indian named Wevoka called the Ghost Dance. It included Ghost Shirts -- which were supposedly magically bullet-proof. They didn't stop .45 Colt bullets.

 

[jmr40]

The 45 ACP is well known for poor penetration through barriers including heavy clothing. Stop repeating old wives tales and look at real data. One of the primary reasons why the 9mm is a better military round is its better barrier penetration. The military has known about this since WW-2 and wanted to switch to 9mm in 1945 primarily for this reason.

A bullets WEIGHT is not what gives it good penetration. It is bullet LENGTH. Within the same caliber a heavier bullet is longer. But a 230 gr 45 caliber is a short stubby bullet with poor penetration potential.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The 45 ACP is well known for poor penetration through barriers including heavy clothing.

If you put on everything you own, a .45 ACP will still shoot clear through you.

 

[JR47]

Strange that you are so absolutely sure that the .45 ACP has such poor penetration potential. Yet, the military used it successfully in Winter operations in WWII, Korea, and, with Spec Ops in winter operations in Afghanistan. The Norwegians, who could have specified any caliber also settled on the .45 ACP prior to WWII.

Despite the long-winded logic as to why it won't do something, perhaps we should look at what it HAS done. Remember, not too long ago, these same people, scientists proclaimed that a bumblebee couldn't fly. Nobody was able to convince the bees of that, though, so the scientific reasoning was changed.

I'm afraid that the only "old wives tales" so far presented were in the post that referenced them.

Also, nobody in the military ever decided that handgun penetration of materials was an issue. Until recently, handguns were regarded as last-ditch, up close and personal evidence of a failed tactical doctrine. The move after WWII was driven by the never-ending search for high-capacity at low weight. That, and the fact that the Ordnance Board was enamored of German weaponry.

The question wasn't about which handgun caliber penetrated the most, it was about heavy winter clothing, and the ability of a .45 ACP to penetrate it. If the Norwegians, who could well have used the mythical ability of the 9x19, didn't have any issues with the .45 ACP against enemies in THEIR winter gear, maybe this is much ado about nothing?

 

[1911Tuner]

The 45 ACP is well known for poor penetration through barriers including heavy clothing. Stop repeating old wives tales and look at real data. One of the primary reasons why the 9mm is a better military round is its better barrier penetration. The military has known about this since WW-2 and wanted to switch to 9mm in 1945 primarily for this reason.

More years ago than I care to admit, me and a few of my friends found a Caterpillar tire on its side in a place where it shouldn't have been. It was also our little private shootin' range.

Damage to the sidewall told us that it had been dumped there for somebody else to deal with. A litterbug on a massive scale.

So, we proceeded to shoot through the tread to see if any of our pistol rounds would make it.

.45/230 GI surplus hardball did. So did my handloaded 230-grain Hornady truncated cone flat point.` They actually shot through the tread and buried up flush with the base in the opposite side.

124-grain NATO-spec 9mm ball didn't, nor did 115-grain ball...nor did an old lot of 130-grain full patch .38 Super. Real mid-60s .38 Super...not the sissy stuff. We did manage to get one round of the Super to poke its nose out of the inner tread...but that was it. Neither of the dozen or so 9mm rounds managed to break through to daylight.

So, no. Sorry. 9mm won't out penetrate .45 ball. Not in heavy clothing and not in a human body...and for sure not the tread of a giant tire.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I bet fmj ammo will penetrate better than hollowpoint as I use fmj ammo in my 25acp as it will penetrate 9in of ballistic gellitin where hollowpoint will only penetrate 4in of ballistic gellitin!

You aren't trying to equate a 50gr .25 Auto round with a 230gr 45 Auto round, are you? I understand your point about the FMJ bullet but it's not only the bullet profile that will aid in penetration, it's mass. A 50gr bullet @760 fps will never match a 230gr bullet @850 fps. Physics just doesn't allow it...

The above 25 Auto will generate 64 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle while the 45 Auto will generate 368 ft/lbs of energy. The 45 Auto will carry over 5X the kinetic energy too.

 

[MCgunner]

What the hell do they wear up north in the winter, layers of kevlar?

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

I once read an account about the .45 not having enough penetration for the winter clothing worn by North Korean Army. I once shot up my bil's 65 Chevy truck. The .45 would not penetrate thru and thru the bed, stopping fully on the opposite side, but I had no trouble with my 9mm Browning. The .38 super was brought out as a direct result of the .45 not having enough penetration.

I have never shot my .45 into clothing, but at normal handgun distances I'm not worried about penetration. I guess the North Koreans had some really heavy clothing. I also recall some GI's ditching their .45's in favor of carbines.

I would like to see someone do a test against different barriers. My money is on the 9mm.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

What the hell do they wear up north in the winter, layers of kevlar?

Nope, we usually stick with cotton, wool, fleece, some Gortex, and some of us like leather in winter because it cuts the wind. 45 acp ammo of any kind will work just fine on those materials. I stake my life on that idea every winter.

 

[Nom de Forum]

The 45 ACP is well known for poor penetration through barriers including heavy clothing. Stop repeating old wives tales and look at real data. One of the primary reasons why the 9mm is a better military round is its better barrier penetration. The military has known about this since WW-2 and wanted to switch to 9mm in 1945 primarily for this reason.

A bullets WEIGHT is not what gives it good penetration. It is bullet LENGTH. Within the same caliber a heavier bullet is longer. But a 230 gr 45 caliber is a short stubby bullet with poor penetration potential.

You may find a quick study of the the terms "sectional density" and "ballistic coefficient" useful in understanding some of the factors that determine how well a bullet penetrates. Neither length or weight is the determinant how well a projectile can penetrate a target.

 

[MCgunner]

Ballistic coefficient has nothing to do with penetration, but sectional density does in rifles. I'm not sure it applies to short, blunt handgun loads that much, but yeah, it's a determinant.

I really don't think any clothing short of a Kevlar or Kevlar/ceramic armored vest is going to stop EITHER the 9x19 or the .45ACP in FMJ form. If you had that much on, you'd look like the Michelin man and without the tires with Kevlar belts, you'd still get penetrated.

I have a .45 and a nine I sometimes carry, but my favorite is .357 magnum. I know it danged sure penetrates hogs and deer. They ain't wearing clothing, but they go down RIGHT NOW with a good hit and the bullet breaks bones in the process.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Ballistic coefficient has nothing to do with penetration, but sectional density does in rifles. I'm not sure it applies to short, blunt handgun loads that much, but yeah, it's a determinant. ..........

You don't think ballistic coefficient has anything to do with how well a bullet retains velocity and how the velocity of a bullet is also a factor in penetration? Also my comments were not specifically about 9mm and .45ACP bullets penetrating heavy clothing at close range. Obviously the ballistic coefficient differences of those bullets has next to nothing to do with penetration. I did not say only sectional density and ballistic coefficient are factors in determining penetration. I was merely attempting to stear jmr40 on to the right path for understanding a complex subject. Anyone who thinks length is the determinant for penetration needs to pointed in the right direction. There are many other factors that determine penetration and if you want to get on that merry-go-round I am sure we can all take a long ride.