.45 cal 200 grain xtp wth Longshot/ Power Pistol

[Tony k]

I'm about to start working up 45 acp loads for these 200 grain Hornady XTP bullets I've got. My hornady manual claims a velocity potential of up to 1000 FPS with both Longshot and Power Pistol out of a 5" barrel at max loads.

With LS, I'll test 6.6, 7.1, 7.6, 8.1, and 8.6 grains
With PP, I'll test 6.6, 7.0, 7.4, 7.8, and 8.2 grains

I'll use oal of 1.23" and winchester WLP primers

Anyone have input/ experience with these combos?

I've read here on THR that Longshot tends to group poorly with lighter loads, and that both powders are likely to produce excessive muzzle flash with this bullet weight. My intent is to produce a powerful load that is reasonably accurate and shootable (for me). I expect the higher end loads to produce significant recoil. That's fine since I don't intend to use this for extended range sessions.

It would be great to hear from folks who've actually tested this combo, but wild speculation and twisted up third-hand information is also fun and entertaining to read Thanks!

 

[Blue68f100]

When you start working up toward MAX you step in 0.1gr steps inspecting brass after each shot. Taking a big jump is not recommended.

 

[horseman1]

Hi,

I used Longshot with that bullet. YMMV, but I had poor performance until I got just above the middle range you have posted and things started to smooth out. The best loads in my gun still ended up being below max, but not all that much. Work up your loads, as your experience and gun may be different. Those loads look like they are right out of the Hornady manual.

Many have called it Loudshot, for good reason I think.

 

[SDGlock23]

I've not messed too much with Longshot in the ACP, a little but not much. However I have done a little bit with Power Pistol.

From a 5" barrel:

200gr Speer TMJ, 8.5gr Power Pistol @ 1.200": 1,043 fps (8 fps extreme spread).

Power Pistol has pretty much always been a very consistent powder, and doesn't mind to be pushed a little warm. I like it quite a bit, would suggest with the 200gr XTP to keep the 1.200" OAL but work up from 8.0gr (8.0, 8.2, 8.4/8.5).

 

[Walkalong]

The 1911 isn't really meant to be hot rodded, but a few here and there won't hurt anything.

Me? I don't want to beat up my 1911s. YMMV.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

The 1911 isn't really meant to be hot rodded, but a few here and there won't hurt anything.

Me? I don't want to beat up my 1911s. YMMV.

I agree...

Also, the 45 auto is not a high pressure round and both Longshot and Power Pistol are fairly slow powders which perform better up near the top of the pressure range. I would choose a faster powder if I were developing a new load.

Why are you looking for 1000 fps from a 45 Auto? That round has been stopping bad guys @800 fps for a century.

I'm a big fan of W231/HP-38 in the 45 Auto. The slowest powder i would use in that cartridge is AA#5 which was developed around the 45 Auto and works well with good velocity and accuracy.

 

[ngnrd]

The 1911 isn't really meant to be hot rodded, but a few here and there won't hurt anything.

Me? I don't want to beat up my 1911s. YMMV.

The OP never said (nor did anyone else) he was loading for a 1911. So... where's this talk about hot-rodding a 1911 coming from? Assumption due to his mentioning that the velocities listed with the load data came from a 5" barrel? The reply just seems a bit off topic...

[For the record: I have no experience with either 5" barrels, or 200gr bullets. I'm currently using Power Pistol to push 185gr bullets pretty fast out of my Ruger P90.]

 

[Walkalong]

Good point. I must be suffering from poor reading comprehension today.

 

[gamestalker]

Don't feel bad, when I hear 45 acp, I instantly think 1911 also. I think we tend to get a little bit tunnel visioned sometimes within this hobby, ya know what I mean.

GS

 

[Tony k]

Blue68f100 said:

When you start working up toward MAX you step in 0.1gr steps inspecting brass after each shot. Taking a big jump is not recommended.

That's a good point Blue, especially considering the powders I'm dealing with. Maybe I'll take bigger jumps at the lower end, then shift to smaller increments near max. Thanks for the safety reminder.

Horeseman 1, yes they are directly out of the Hornady manual.

SDGlock23: I've used powerpistol with 230 grain xtps and fmjs a little bit, and I have had good results. [B]Question: why 1.20" oal? I know that shorter oal can ramp up pressure, but is there another reason to go shorter with these bullets? Maybe feed issues?

Walkalong: I'm primarily going to test these out of a Kahr CW45 with a 3.5" barrel, which is rated for +P. That's the gun I intend to use it in. That's also a big part of the reason I don't expect break the 1000 fps mark. However, I may test some of the low to medium ones in my Taurus 1911. It's more forgiving of lower-powered ammo, and I'm not really interested in beating it up with hot rod rounds.

ArchangelCD Said:

Also, the 45 auto is not a high pressure round and both Longshot and Power Pistol are fairly slow powders which perform better up near the top of the pressure range. I would choose a faster powder if I were developing a new load.

Why are you looking for 1000 fps from a 45 Auto? That round has been stopping bad guys @800 fps for a century.

I'm a big fan of W231/HP-38 in the 45 Auto. The slowest powder i would use in that cartridge is AA#5 which was developed around the 45 Auto and works well with good velocity and accuracy.

I'm well aware that both LS and PP are on the slow end for 45 auto. My normal practice loads are with 700x and Unique. Part of the reason I'm trying these powders is that W231/HP-38 is not available right now. I'm pretty new to reloading compared to most of you folks, so I haven't had a chance to build up a huge selection of different powders (plus I shoot it about as fast as I can get it). I had PP on hand, and I picked up LS on a whim after checking to make sure there was published load data for it in 45 auto.

I have one quibble with your "stopping bad guys @800 fps for a century" statement. Doesn't that apply more to the 230 grain bullet the military opted for, rather than the 200 grain bullet @ 900 fps that John Browning originally intended?

Gamestalker. Walkalong,and ngnrd: I should have specified the firearms I intended to test these loads with. I will do most of the testing with a Kahr CW45, but I might also try some of the lower end loads in a Taurus 1911. I hypothosize that the Kahr won't reliably cycle with the lower end loads (stiffer recoil spring and shorter action), and that the higher end loads will slam the slide into the frame on the 1911 (ouch!).

As usual on THR, lots of great feedback that I really appreciate. However, I got to admit that I'm a little disappointed that there isn't any wild speculation or twisted up third-hand information This thread isn't dead yet, so I can only hope...

 

[Walkalong]

I hypothosize that the Kahr won't reliably cycle with the lower end loads (stiffer recoil spring and shorter action), and that the higher end loads will slam the slide into the frame on the 1911 (ouch!).

I haven't shot a Kahr .45, but I have shot a heavy sprung 3.25" barreled Taurus and it would not cycle some light .45 loads that cycled a 1911 easily. Turned the Millennium Pro into a single shot.

 

[Pentrite]

I like longshot in my .45acp loads. Did a little workup last weekend to play with the new chronograph. Here were the results. Test subject was a G36, 3.77" barrel, stock springs. WLP primers. 185gr xtreme WC, 1.135"COL and 230gr xtreme RN bullets, 1.200"COL and some stock factory winchester silvertips. Average velocities over 10 rounds. 6.8gr with the 230rn bullets worked the best. Had one feed jam with the wadcutters. Round chambered the second time and functioned.

45acp
811 Win Silvertip ??factory
794 185g WC 8.0gr longshot
760 185g WC 7.6gr longshot
749 185g WC 7.2gr longshot

790 230g RN 6.8gr longshot
782 230g RN 6.8gr longshot

 

[Flintknapper]

200 grain XTP over 7.4 grs. of Power Pistol (CCI LP primer) OAL 1.230", light taper crimp...gives me an average 917 fps from my 4.25" barrel (extreme spread 54 fps).

Very manageable load. A little 'flashy' in low light, which prompted me to switch to Vihtavouri 3N37, but I load (and like) both (the Vit load is different of course).

 

[TfflHndn]

While I mostly shoot 200 grainers in .45 auto, my logs show I have tested LS and PP only with 185 grainers. For what it's worth, both powders were acceptable in function and accuracy, and I noted BIG flash and some sooty cases. Probably need to try these powders with heavier bullets to get the most out of the powders.

 

[Tony k]

I like longshot in my .45acp loads. Did a little workup last weekend to play with the new chronograph. Here were the results. Test subject was a G36, 3.77" barrel, stock springs. WLP primers. 185gr xtreme WC, 1.135"COL and 230gr xtreme RN bullets, 1.200"COL and some stock factory winchester silvertips. Average velocities over 10 rounds. 6.8gr with the 230rn bullets worked the best. Had one feed jam with the wadcutters. Round chambered the second time and functioned.

45acp
811 Win Silvertip ??factory
794 185g WC 8.0gr longshot
760 185g WC 7.6gr longshot
749 185g WC 7.2gr longshot

790 230g RN 6.8gr longshot
782 230g RN 6.8gr longshot

Those results seem a little counter-intuitive. How could less powder push a heavier bullet faster than lighter bullet with more powder? What am I missing here? Plus, the velocities are a lot lower than what I would expect, even from a shorter barrel.

200 grain XTP over 7.4 grs. of Power Pistol (CCI LP primer) OAL 1.230", light taper crimp...gives me an average 917 fps from my 4.25" barrel (extreme spread 54 fps).

Very manageable load. A little 'flashy' in low light,

This is what I would anticipate/ hope for, Flintknapper. Probably more flash and a few FPS less out of my shorter barrel though.

For what it's worth, both powders were acceptable in function and accuracy, and I noted BIG flash and some sooty cases. Probably need to try these powders with heavier bullets to get the most out of the powders.

Exactly, TfflHndn. This is what I anticipate being the biggest weakness of this bullet/powder combo.


I need to quit chatting and work these up and fire em off...

 

[Pentrite]

"Those results seem a little counter-intuitive. How could less powder push a heavier bullet faster than lighter bullet with more powder? What am I missing here? Plus, the velocities are a lot lower than what I would expect, even from a shorter barrel. "


sorry, I cant explain that. The Hodgdon reloading page shows very similar pressure between the two 45acp loads. Do you think it has something to do with the COL being much shorter on the WC bullets?
Its definitely a slow burn powder that likes longer barrels and heavier bullets. I was getting an average of 1190fps out of my G20c (4.6" barrel) 10mm with 180gr xtreme and 9gr of longshot.

 

[Lj1941]

I have had good accuracy from PP with 185 Grain Noslers. I never clocked the loads but there was a rather annoying flash and a loud report. I am looking to try BE86 for better results.

 

[Tony k]

Finally got out and tested both powder/ bullet combinations. I was mainly testing for proper cycling and relative accuracy. Did not have chrono.

All loads were able to cycle the Kahr cw45 just fine. I did not test them in my PT1911.

I was shooting at 6" mgm targets from 15 yards standing. As some of you predicted, the Long Shot was not very accurate below 7.6 grains. It was best above 8 grains. Between 8 and 8.6 I couldn't tell a difference in accuracy or felt recoil.

The longshot was LOUD, and my girlfriend said she could feel the percussion in her chest even at the low end.

Power pistol seemed to have a wider range of acceptable accuracy (again, I didn't measure groups, I just shot at steel targets). 7.8 to 8.2 all shot really well.

The recoil of all loads was on the stouter side, but nothing unmanageable. Overall, it seemed like the Power Pistol had a smoother recoil, and the Long Shot was a little sharper.

A note about possible COAL with 200 grain hornady XTPs: They have a long ogive and a fairly short bearing surface. I expected them to have the same nose shape as my 230 grain XTPs. These 200 grainers are definitely pointier. You really can't load them any shorter than 1.230". With the 230 grainers, I can definitely load them to 1.210 with room to spare on the bearing surface. You can't go that short with these 200gr xtps. Have the 200 grain xtps always been like that or has hornady changed the shape?

I like the Power Pistol better, but I'll load up higher quantities of each to see how they perform. I might load up 50 of each at 8 grains to see how they do in more extensive tests.