.45 Caliber Cartridges best all around short range defense and hunter? Or not?

[CraigC]

There is one cartridge that effectively bridges all gaps but it is not going to do so with the same loads. That is the .45Colt. Loads can range from the original blackpowder 250gr at 950fps to monster masher 360's at 1400fps. With proper guns and loads, the .45Colt is capable of virtually any task.

Sorry, but no! The legend of 45 caliber being superior is largely based on mythology, not facts. The 45-70 was the original poodle shooter. The army went from a 58 caliber black powder round to a 45 caliber black powder round in 1873. It was a failure. In the 1870's it was considered under powered and unsuitable for anything larger than whitetail. By the 1890's rounds like the 7X57 had proven to be vastly superior as both a military and hunting round and the 45-70 was all but dead. Even the 30-30 was seen as vastly better in every way. Now, with modern loads the 45-70 is a legitimate big game round, but is no more effective than typical 30-06 class rounds on even the largest game.

100 years later Marlin revived the 45-70 with colorful advertising hinting that it had been a successful buffalo rifle. The problem with that is that the 45-70 was introduced in 1873. All the Buffalo were gone before the Civil War started in 1861, 12 years earlier. In fact laws were passed banning buffalo hunting to preserve the handful left in 1874, one year after the 45-70 was introduced.

As far as 45 ACP is concerned the 38 Super and 357 magnum were both introduced for LE because the 38 Specal and 45 ACP handguns of the day simply were ineffective during the depression era fight against organized crime. By 1946 the army was disappointed in both the 45 and 1911 pistol, most of the GI's who carried it did not care much for it. After WW-2 the Army conducted extensive tests and determined that the 9mm out performed 45 ACP in every test when using FMJ ammo. The Army wanted to make the change in 1946, but with no war and no budget the plan was shelved and forgotten. The legend of the 1911 and 45 ACP were mostly the result of articles written by gun writers after WW-2. Most of that writing was long on hyperbole and short on facts.

Good Lord, I hardly know where to begin. As a matter of fact, I'm struggling to find a single part of this post that isn't patently false.

Notably, the big move against the buffalo happened after the war and the big cartridge rifles of the day were responsible for a great many dead buffalo.

Its predecessor was the .50/70. Its predecessor was the .58 Miller rimfire and it was a dismal failure.

For anyone of any era to consider the original .45/70 (500gr at 1200fps) to be "underpowered and unsuitable for anything larger than whitetail" shows an extreme level of ignorance on the subject. See that 1800lb bull in my avatar? It was dropped by a slightly smaller, 150gr lighter bullet at the same velocity. Today, with modern guns, modern bullets and modern powders, the .45/70 is a viable dangerous game cartridge. The .30-06 is not.

The move to high velocity small bore rifle cartridges for military use was strictly to gain effective range for direct fire. As opposed to the volley fire used up through the Civil War and shortly thereafter.

The .38Super and .357Mag came about because the .45 did not have the velocity to penetrate windshields. Not because it was incapable against flesh.

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?tocid=1094&magid=78

 

[Sam1911]

100 years later Marlin revived the 45-70 with colorful advertising hinting that it had been a successful buffalo rifle. The problem with that is that the 45-70 was introduced in 1873. All the Buffalo were gone before the Civil War started in 1861, 12 years earlier. In fact laws were passed banning buffalo hunting to preserve the handful left in 1874, one year after the 45-70 was introduced.

A historical piece on PBS back in 1998 stated that there were 1.5 million bison harvested in the winter of 1872-73, so they certainly couldn't have been gone by the start of the Civil War. There was a bill in Congress in 1874 to try and protect the herd, but it was not passed, and in 1975 the bison were still such a viable food source for the Native American plains tribes that General Sheraton attempted to get Congress to pass legislation to deliberately eradicate them, to more easily pacify the tribes.

They were largely extinct by the 1890s.

 

[loneviking]

I'm a reloader and I've been looking for a sidearm/rifle pair for anything from self defense to brush hunting. I keep coming back to the .45 Colt and the Marlin 45/70. The lighter rounds (300 gr and under) can be used in either gun, so that saves on money. The .45 Colt ballistics look good for anything under 200 yards in the woods out of the Marlin. Wasn't it at Antelope Wells where an indian was shot out of the saddle at 1100 yards with a long barreled 45/70?

 

[roscoe]

Yeah - the history is pretty random on why .45. But I have pretty much picked it as a great dual-use cartridge. Buffalo Bore and DoubleTap make 325-360 grain hardcast ammo that gets 1500-1600 fps or so from a 16" barrel. That is pretty serious penetration - plenty for anything in the western hemisphere. And obviously there are many lighter loadings in softpoint that are moving faster. I figure with a 5.5" Blackhawk and a 16" Trapper, they are as potent as you would need, the caveat being the range, obviously. But .44 Mag will do all this as well, so in no way is .45 sacred. In my case, they just happened to have a .45 Trapper on sale when I was shopping for a .44.

 

[Armored farmer]

In

Unsure of your reasoning there, kbbailey. You think .45 caliber is the perfect middle between extremes of size? There's not a whole lot bigger than .45 caliber in the shootin' world so that seems unlikely.

I've done a little calculating and was wondering if you were making a mathematical pun on 1.618, but I don't see that either.

The number. 45 keeps showing up in different shooting sports.
CAS
SASS
IDPA
HUNTING
TARGET
DEFENSE
BLACK POWDER
The golden mean I referred to was the number that keeps appearing under different circumstances.

 

[Armored farmer]

I'm a reloader and I've been looking for a sidearm/rifle pair for anything from self defense to brush hunting. I keep coming back to the .45 Colt and the Marlin 45/70. The lighter rounds (300 gr and under) can be used in either gun, so that saves on money. The .45 Colt ballistics look good for anything under 200 yards in the woods out of the Marlin. Wasn't it at Antelope Wells where an indian was shot out of the saddle at 1100 yards with a long barreled 45/70?

Billy Dixon at Adobe Walls. 1538 yards with a borrowed .50-90 Sharps

 

[1stmarine]

IMO for defensive purposes the full power 357SIG is a very good one, flat shooting hard hitting like the 357 magnum.
The US secret service choice among many other special units all over the world.
But in the woods, a fully loaded large frame glock with full power 10mm rounds is hard to beat.
For full power rounds on these calibers one needs to find brands like Buffalo Bore, Underwood, Grizzly, etc...
There is also the 9x25 Dillon that starts to behave more like a rifle round form a pistol specially with 6" barrels.
Recoil starts to get pretty snappy, still more compact and a lot more firepower than revolvers.

 

[zb338]

I shot on a pistol team while in the U.S. Army. The reason the Army wanted to get rid of
the .45 was because so many soldiers had a hard time shooting it. When I was trying out
for the pistol team a bunch of soldiers showed up that had never shot a .45. When the
whistle blew trees fell down, dirt kicked up, target frames were broken. I wanted to dig
a fox hole.
Zeke

 

[Delford]

I shot on a pistol team while in the U.S. Army. The reason the Army wanted to get rid of
the .45 was because so many soldiers had a hard time shooting it. When I was trying out
for the pistol team a bunch of soldiers showed up that had never shot a .45. When the
whistle blew trees fell down, dirt kicked up, target frames were broken. I wanted to dig
a fox hole.
Zeke

Many small frame people find it hard to shoot .45 handguns for various reasons. I'm a large frame Norse heritage type who came late to shooting. After qualifying for my CCL with a .22 Beretta Neos I searched and shot several calibers. I ended up with a .45 ACP and learned to hold on and shoot it straight. After a few years I found the Kahr PM45 is easier to conceal while handling the same as the larger gun in terms of recoil IMO. I shoot because I found joy in it and because it protects me and my family to a certain degree. I'm just glad I wasn't anywhere near your tryouts.

 

[KansasSasquatch]

No one has mentioned .460S&W yet. Yes, the name implies that it isnt a .45 but it uses smaller (diameter) bullets than .45-70. You can load it light for daily carry and load it heavy for hunting. An S&W x-frame isn't the easiest pistol to conceal but is possible. For hunting the longer barreled x-frame does the trick, or there's companies making single shot and lever action rifles. If someone would make a rimless version of the cartridge I think it would also be a great cartridge for a semi-auto rifle.

 

[Zoogster]

I think the 45 ACP would be a great cartridge if legislation didn't limit what you could use it with. A full auto suppressed .45 ACP is not hard to control on full auto while remaining subsonic and allowing good suppression.
Since most of us have to be loud anyways due to silencer laws, and most of us cannot have fully automatic new firearms, it ceases to be as good of a cartridge. Might as well use something with more power per projectile and harder to suppress. So I would choose something else as a handgun cartridge and something else as a long gun cartridge.
However that means in its day a suppressed Thompson before either technology was as restricted was a pretty ideal weapon for close range work.

 

[Tirod]

The US Army DID have some issues with the 1911 in .45ACP after the war, and it DID have a replacement competition which was terminated in 1954. The specs for the gun were that it was to be a 4" 9mm DA. Much of that was derived from the P38 as it was considered superior to the 1911 in a lot of respects.

The competition was initially entered by Colt, with one entirely new model, plus the first edition alloy framed Commander. High Standard brought in a similar new model like Colts new one. S&W first declined, but after a change in leadership jumped in with both feet and came up with the M39, a 9mm alloy framed gun.

Subsequently after testing and trials, the Army decided to shelve all that because there were 2.5 million 1911's in stock and handguns were not and still are not a primary combat weapon for them. The Colt Commander went into production, and S&W offered the M39. Both sauntered along in sales for a few decades until the 9mm double stack guns - the wondernines - began taking market share from the standard revolvers arming American policemen. S&W double stacked theirs creating the M59, the Illinois State Police ordered them, and the race was on. By the 1980s S&W provided the bulk of new autos in the hands of police nationwide.

The .45 Commander? In comparison, chump change, it never got a toehold in the LEO market and what replaced the 1911? The M9 Beretta 9mm. As for either being a substantive carbine cartridge, no, even 5.56 from a 10.5 inch barrel far exceeds either of them and had already been selected for the job in 1965 as the XM177.

After 1990, Glock was making serious inroads into the market with their 9mm guns. The .45? It was still a minor player, only used by certain special teams. .45 isn't all that when it comes to firearms, as the .380 and 9mm market clearly shows. I enjoy shooting my 4566TSW, but I carry a Kahr CW380 for good reasons.

 

[bikerdoc]

There are 2 NVA that fell to a 1911 in 69. I have grand kids they dont. 1911 is my go to still 48 years later.

 

[200Apples]

Who hunts with a 9mm Parabellum? Please.

I'd think it would be the .44 caliber cartridge that is the "best all around short range defense and hunter"... and if only one gun, say, a S&W Model 629, one can handload the Magnum to .44 Special ballistics for short-range defense then have full-tilt .44 Magnum hunting loads.

 

[dh1633pm]

The 45 Colt in a Modern Firearm is pretty potent. I don't call it +P or otherwise. Old firearms can't handle the pressure like a modern Ruger. An 1873 Winchester can't handle what an 1892 Winchester or Marlin can handle.

 

[Dog Soldier]

As ZB338, posted. It was a matter of experience. Handgun shooting was not as popular prior to WWII. The handgun popularity grew out the Western movies of the 1950s.

 

[PabloJ]

The USA is renowned for its .45 Caliber loadings. From the .45 Caliber black powder non-cartridge guns to the cartridge guns in 45-65, 45-70, 45-90, 45-120, 45 Colt, 45 Long Colt, all the way down to the venerable .45ACP. There are other big game loads and probably a few more pistol variants as well. Could it be that .45 Caliber American loadings are the longest running on the planet? It may be that every 45 Caliber loading is capable of its intended mission and hence may well be the ultimate short range stopper for hunting or defense. There is something .45 Caliber loaded in America for nearly every task. It works whether it expands on impact or not. It works in the brush, in the heavy rain and snow, in the wind. Is there ONE cartridge in .45 that works pistol or rifle for big game and defense?

It depends where one lives for example, for protection against large bears or mother moose in NWT or Alaska double barrel weapon with two triggers would be preferred. Typical sample would be ole' Army & Navy .450-400 built around Webley action. If you good with it only one shot would be needed.

 

[200Apples]

Handgun shooting was not as popular prior to WWII. The handgun popularity grew out the Western movies of the 1950s.

I would add, respectfully, the writing of Elmer Keith before as well as after the War, Skeeter Skelton, and let's not forget! Jeff Cooper & Co's Leatherslap competitions up at Snow Summit in the 1950s... where, while there may have been some cowboy movie influence, only Jack Weaver with his whirlenpopper and his two-handed grip was able to best the post-war, tuned 1911s of the time.

It's all a blurr... I can barely remember it all... since I was born in '55! Ha ha!

 

[SlayerOfBunnies]

Who hunts with a 9mm Parabellum? Please.

Sometimes.

 

[stoky]

If your willing and able to deal with rainbow trajectory, there's not much a .45 rifle can't do.
Billy Dixon (somebody had to mention 'em)

 

[gun_with_a_view]

One might venture 9mm has more stopping power than .45 ACP...when it comes to stopping grizzly bears:

https://www.americanhunter.org/arti...ishermen-from-raging-grizzly-with-9mm-pistol/

http://www.nationalparkstraveler.co...-hikers-denali-national-park-and-preserve5943

And when it comes to stopping humans:

http://www.grandviewoutdoors.com/guns/case-closed-fbi-says-9mm-is-the-best-pistol-round/

http://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/7-reasons-cops-choose-9mm-40/

 

[sorebutton]

I'm pretty happy with 5.56/223 in an AR pistol and rifle.
(kidding)

 

[CraigC]

One might venture 9mm has more stopping power than .45 ACP...when it comes to stopping grizzly bears:

Yeah, no.

 

[200Apples]

Sometimes.

Check. Got me, there. I like a .22 WMR for similarly-sized stuff.

I meant HUNT.

Hee.

 

[maxxhavoc]

No one has mentioned .460S&W yet. Yes, the name implies that it isnt a .45 but it uses smaller (diameter) bullets than .45-70. You can load it light for daily carry and load it heavy for hunting. An S&W x-frame isn't the easiest pistol to conceal but is possible. For hunting the longer barreled x-frame does the trick, or there's companies making single shot and lever action rifles. If someone would make a rimless version of the cartridge I think it would also be a great cartridge for a semi-auto rifle.

I think so too. My next AR-10 build will probably be a 45 Raptor...A rimless 460 that uses the exact load data as 460.
http://www.45raptor.com/45RAPTOR/