I have three loads for my 45 Colt revolvers, 9.9 grs of Accurate No. 5, 7.4 gr. of Unique and 7.3 gr. of HP-38. If I point the muzzle up, and then bring it down to shoot, I get between 700-750 FPS out of the three loads. If I lower the muzzle of the gun, then raise it to shoot, the velocity is 100-200 FPS lower. I realize its caused by very little smokeless powder in a big case designed for black powder. Is there a way to fix this problem besides using Trail Boss which is impossible to find? Are there any other position insensitive powders?
45 Colt Loads and Position Sensitivity
- Thread starter Barmcd
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Charlie98
Member
Think about it this way... unless you are shooting at the moon, or shooting your toe off, the powder position is relatively consistent otherwise... with the pistol and cartridge pointing the same direction for each shot, it should average out.
Mycin
Member
Titegroup has a reputation for being position insensitive, or at least less position-sensitive than most.
Rimfire McNutjob
Member
I don't know what bullet you're shooting, but you could sacrifice efficiency and go with something like 4227 or N110 which would fill 70 - 80% of the case. Your charge would probably be near double what you're doing with those other powders, hence lower efficiency by charge weight and incomplete burn by the time of bullet exit so also a loss of ballistic efficiency. But you'd be way less position dependent and end up in the same general velocity zone. Maybe a bit more of a fireball on the business end.
Of course, now I'm wondering about going in the other direction with a lighter charge of something like Bullseye with it's 40% NG content. I suspect it lights off easier than most other powders and may not be as position sensitive even though it takes up even less case volume than your other loads. I think this is similar to the Titegroup suggestion above.
Of course, now I'm wondering about going in the other direction with a lighter charge of something like Bullseye with it's 40% NG content. I suspect it lights off easier than most other powders and may not be as position sensitive even though it takes up even less case volume than your other loads. I think this is similar to the Titegroup suggestion above.
WST and Competition are two of the best I have tested for not losing as much velocity when the powder is against the bullet. Some are terrible.
It tested average for me, still shot well, but average as far as loss of velocity
I shoot 250 gr. Hornady XTP, 250 gr. Berry's Plated Bullets and 255 gr. Hornady Cowboy LFN bullets. I shoot more of the Berry's bullets than the other two combined.
Average isn't good for you competition dude's. For average Joe's like me it's a good one
I've been using either 23.7 grains of IMR 4227 or 19.7 grns of Alliant 2400 for my loads. I also use Hornady 250 grn XTPs for both loads. Both loads run at an average of 971 fps. The only real difference is the recoil. The 2400 load is a handful. I'm also shooting a Ruger Blackhawk.
GeoDudeFlorida
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Accurate No. 7 may be your friend here. It’s not position sensitive that I can tell and at 16gr for an 1100fps load (from my 10” Contender) it gives fairly good case fill.
OS/N
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I've been loading 10 grains + a little for my ruger of A#5 with 255 keith SWC bullets in trimed SP casull cases (annealed) with good results. I use SRPs and don't see any noticable difference in fps from different starting positions. The case appears to be around 50% full when factoring the seating depth. FPS is a shade over 900 in a 5.5" barrel and has plenty power for most applications. My manual shows 10grains as max at 14kpsi so if loading an older SAA or copy I would not exceed 10grns of #5 with the 255 keith bullet. OAL is 1.6".
Annealing case mouths does more for single digit SDs and a good chamber seal in the 45C than anything else I've tried. If you are bypassing pressures will be inconsistaint regardless of powder position at firing IMO. Expect 3/10 to 1/2 grain less powder needed to reach the same fps when the case seals well vers black cases and dirty chambers.
Starline has good info on a simple annealing method if interested under the 45-70 black powder low pressure loading heading. I don't take cases to a low glow though - if you soften too much the cases are harder to get out and it isn't needed to get a good seal. Soften just enough to get a slight finished color case change to just below the seating depth works fine. Run water depth at about half the case and deep enough to cover the case when you knock it over.
Annealing case mouths does more for single digit SDs and a good chamber seal in the 45C than anything else I've tried. If you are bypassing pressures will be inconsistaint regardless of powder position at firing IMO. Expect 3/10 to 1/2 grain less powder needed to reach the same fps when the case seals well vers black cases and dirty chambers.
Starline has good info on a simple annealing method if interested under the 45-70 black powder low pressure loading heading. I don't take cases to a low glow though - if you soften too much the cases are harder to get out and it isn't needed to get a good seal. Soften just enough to get a slight finished color case change to just below the seating depth works fine. Run water depth at about half the case and deep enough to cover the case when you knock it over.
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I’ll give Bullseye and Tight Group a try first. I have a pound of each. It’s really annoying because the bullets sit nose down in the ammo box, then they are loaded with the gun pointing down so I have to make sure to raise the barrel before shooting or the powder is definitely stacked behind the bullet after loading.
P Flados
Member
I ran 45C through Quickload looking for all reasonable powders at you velocities and none of them had a percent fill that was high enough to help except possibly 4227. Using 4227 would get very dirty results and would use a lot bigger charges as previously noted.
I went through a similar thing with a low power 38 Sp and decided to do some testing. After doing a bunch of research I went with TiteGroup & Promo (bulk version of Red Dot). I found both of them to be more position sensitive than I expected and to be about the same. I also noted much bigger velocity spreads from the "powder forward" shots than from the "powder to the rear" shots.
For my 38 Sp (and several other handguns with low percent fill), I gave up on finding a "better load" and now just try to regularly point the muzzle up just prior to firing. I also went looking for alternate choices in cartridges for low power shooting that have smaller cases. Some guns that shoot 45C can be had with a 45 ACP extra cylinder for example.
I went through a similar thing with a low power 38 Sp and decided to do some testing. After doing a bunch of research I went with TiteGroup & Promo (bulk version of Red Dot). I found both of them to be more position sensitive than I expected and to be about the same. I also noted much bigger velocity spreads from the "powder forward" shots than from the "powder to the rear" shots.
For my 38 Sp (and several other handguns with low percent fill), I gave up on finding a "better load" and now just try to regularly point the muzzle up just prior to firing. I also went looking for alternate choices in cartridges for low power shooting that have smaller cases. Some guns that shoot 45C can be had with a 45 ACP extra cylinder for example.
1KPerDay
Member
My go-to .45 Colt powder so far has been (wait for it) Autocomp. It seems incongruous but it produced excellent accuracy and very little scorching/debris in my personal testing. It doesn't seem OBVIOUSLY position sensitive but I don't have a chronograph. The HSM cowboy ammunition I started with was ridiculously inconsistent. Some loads literally felt like squibs. I don't buy it anymore.
Lo-Profile
Member
I use to load my 45 Colt with 6.0 grains of Bullseye. Pretty light load.
Wish I could find a 8# jug of it now.
Wish I could find a 8# jug of it now.
GeoDudeFlorida
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I’ve actually been surprised by AutoComps versatility. It’s worth a try and will no doubt perform at least fairly well.
John Taffin some years back wrote an in-depth article on the .45C. He sang the praises of IMR 4227 and Keith bullets in the Blackhawk and Smith Model 25’s. He also highly recommended HS-6 as an intermediate burn powder. He didn’t test any of the Western products but I have and in my experience No.7 falls between HS-6 and 4227 for consistency and load density. It’s an oft overlooked powder and tends to be available in lean times as a result.
Charlie98
Member
Quite true. It's one of the reasons I don't use IMR4227 for ammunition typically intended for pistols, rather, saving it for my rifles... .41 and .45, respectively. It's dandy there, and I don't feel so bad dumping twice as much powder... by weight... in, vs Unique. And, as you mention, it's not a very good 'mid-range' powder, either.
Again... I must be missing something. After you load your cartridges, the forces of recoil after the first shot certainly move that powder around in the case! Assuming you are muzzle up after recoil, that would already set the powder back at the primer. Cocking the pistol, or moving the pistol, would... again... move that powder around.
I would say... try this:
Shoot 10 rounds, carefully making sure the powder is at the back of the case. Then just shoot 10 more rounds. Did the difference show up on the target?
OS/N
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Think A#7 is the mil spec powder for 9mm carbine ammo. Think it likes higher pressures. #5 is close to unique but easier to come by - runs better at higher pressures. The FPS in carbines for 45C is one of the faster loads listed with A#5 but it seems to be good in handguns also. Price is less than the blues also which fall in the same burn dwell bracket.
I tried true blue in the colt but wasn't pleased with the results - case volume is low but it does okay in 9mm, 38spl, and handgun 357 loads. Use in 45acp also but don't push to hard (860fps w/ 230 cast is
more works your pistol too hard). Is around 50$ a # also but goes a long way in smaller cases. Think the last #5 I bought was 35$ a can.
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I forgot to mention, I'd be trying BE-86 for this, might be to light for it, but I would dang sure try it.
It did outstanding in intermediate .357 Mag loads as far as not losing a lot of velocity powder forward compared to most powders I tried in that application.
And again, I shamelessly stole that intermediate .357 Mag load from @tightgroup tiger. Great load.
It did outstanding in intermediate .357 Mag loads as far as not losing a lot of velocity powder forward compared to most powders I tried in that application.
And again, I shamelessly stole that intermediate .357 Mag load from @tightgroup tiger. Great load.
Yes, and it shows up on the chronograph too. I'll get velocities from 500 to 750 FPS and very erratic shot patterns. Yet, If I tilt the muzzle up as I cock the gun, I get consistent velocities. These shots were taken holding the gun level. I measured these loads individually to within .02 grains of powder.
| Shot List | Index | Velocity | Temp | Barometric Pressure | Bullet Weight | Ft/lbs | Power Factor | Date |
| 45 Colt 9.9 gr. Accurate No. 5 | 1 | 334 | 49F | 30 in Hg | 250 | 62 | 83 | 2/19/2024 10:43 |
| 45 Colt 9.9 gr. Accurate No. 5 | 2 | 508 | 49F | 30 in Hg | 250 | 143 | 127 | 2/19/2024 10:43 |
| 45 Colt 9.9 gr. Accurate No. 5 | 3 | 255 | 49F | 30 in Hg | 250 | 36 | 63 | 2/19/2024 10:43 |
| 45 Colt 9.9 gr. Accurate No. 5 | 4 | 412 | 49F | 30 in Hg | 250 | 94 | 103 | 2/19/2024 10:43 |
| 45 Colt 9.9 gr. Accurate No. 5 | 5 | 431 | 49F | 30 in Hg | 250 | 103 | 107 | 2/19/2024 10:43 |
| 45 Colt 9.9 gr. Accurate No. 5 | 6 | 396 | 49F | 30 in Hg | 250 | 87 | 99 | 2/19/2024 10:43 |
These shots were taken by tilting the muzzle up when cocking the gun. The only real difference, besides shooting technique, was the temperature. This group was considerably more accurate than the other.
| Shot List | Index | Velocity | Temperature | Barometric Pressure | Bullet Weight | Ft/lbs | Power Factor | Date |
| 45 Colt 9.9 gr. Accurate No. 5 | 2 | 707 | 72F | 30 in Hg | 250 | 277 | 176 | 2/21/2024 12:39 |
| 45 Colt 9.9 gr. Accurate No. 5 | 3 | 737 | 72F | 30 in Hg | 250 | 302 | 184 | 2/21/2024 12:39 |
| 45 Colt 9.9 gr. Accurate No. 5 | 4 | 739 | 72F | 30 in Hg | 250 | 303 | 184 | 2/21/2024 12:40 |
| 45 Colt 9.9 gr. Accurate No. 5 | 5 | 710 | 72F | 30 in Hg | 250 | 280 | 177 | 2/21/2024 12:40 |
| 45 Colt 9.9 gr. Accurate No. 5 | 6 | 691 | 72F | 30 in Hg | 250 | 265 | 172 | 2/21/2024 12:40 |
These are not the only shots I've chronographed. I loaded and fired upwards of 100 rounds trying to figure this out.
I've measured Cowboy loads from Remington and Winchester and they chronograph in the high 600s to low 700s, but are very consistent no matter how I hold the gun. They are also more accurate.
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.308 Norma
Member
I've seen plenty of old westerns that showed the shooter sort of "flinging" their bullets at the person they were shooting at. In fact, I watched Andy Devine shoot a few "bad guys" by flinging his bullets at them in an old western on TV just yesterday morning. I guess "flinging" the bullets ensures the powder is up against the base of the bullets where those old movie cowboys thought it belonged.
On a serious note, I once tried putting wisps of Dacron pillow stuffing on top of the powder (Unique) in a batch of 45 Colt cases in order to make sure the powder charges stayed against the primers. I didn't have a chronograph back then, so I don't know if the Dacron "filler" provided me with more consistent velocities. I do know it didn't shrink my group sizes, and it smoked a lot.
The recoil slips the gun in your hand upward. Thumb the hammer and flip the gun level and fire . Recoil slips the gun in your hand and thumb the hammer. Repeat. Was a real technique. Can't remember what it was called. Some help please
I've seen plenty of old westerns that showed the shooter sort of "flinging" their bullets at the person they were shooting at. In fact, I watched Andy Devine shoot a few "bad guys" by flinging his bullets at them in an old western on TV just yesterday morning. I guess "flinging" the bullets ensures the powder is up against the base of the bullets where those old movie cowboys thought it belonged.
On a serious note, I once tried putting wisps of Dacron pillow stuffing on top of the powder (Unique) in a batch of 45 Colt cases in order to make sure the powder charges stayed against the primers. I didn't have a chronograph back then, so I don't know if the Dacron "filler" provided me with more consistent velocities. I do know it didn't shrink my group sizes, and it smoked a lot.
.308 Norma
Member
I know what it's called, and I can identify it by its smell.
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