.45 colt top break revolver
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Driftwood Johnson
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Howdy
http://www.uberti.com/top-break-revolver
You can scroll through the different models at the bottom of the page. Most of them are chambered for 45 Colt in addition to other calibers. For what it's worth, none of the originals were ever chambered for 45 Colt.
http://www.uberti.com/top-break-revolver
You can scroll through the different models at the bottom of the page. Most of them are chambered for 45 Colt in addition to other calibers. For what it's worth, none of the originals were ever chambered for 45 Colt.
gwpercle
Member
What Uberti did was lengthen the cylinder and frame just enough to allow it to be chambered in 45 Colt. The guns were originally chambered in the shorter 45 Schofield.
S&W didn't want anything stamped Colt used in their revolvers . Hence the 45 Schofield was their round of choice . .
Gary
S&W didn't want anything stamped Colt used in their revolvers . Hence the 45 Schofield was their round of choice . .
Gary
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Not quite. It was more a matter of tooling.
The 45 Colt cartridge was developed in conjunction with the US government at the Frankford Arsenal. The military designation of the cartridge was Colt's Revolver Cartridge, Caliber .45, M1873. The nominal over all length of the cartridge was 1.625, later shortened to 1.60. Although 40 grains of Black Powder could be fit into the 45 Colt round, the military version of the cartridge carried a reduced load of only 30 grains of powder under a 250 grain bullet. The Single Action Army revolver was developed for this cartridge, and the cylinder had a nominal length of 1.608. (don't forget the cartridge OAL includes the rim, but since the rim is not contained in the cylinder, there was no problem seating a cartridge 1.625 long in a cylinder 1.608 long.
Here is a photo of a 2nd Gen Colt with a 45 Colt round laid against the cylinder to illustrate the relative lengths.
Smith and Wesson had been making large frame revolvers longer than Colt, starting in 1870 with a revolver that eventually became known as the American Model. This revolver fired a 44 caliber cartridge that later became known as the 44 S&W American cartridge. Sorry, I do not have an American Model to show the relative lengths of the cylinder and cartridge, but the nominal length of the American Model cylinder was 1.45. I do have a 44 S&W American cartridge, and it measures 1.424 long over all.
In 1871, before Colt began to manufacture the Single Action Army, Smith and Wesson began manufacturing the very popular Russian Model, eventually producing over 170,000 of them. The cartridge the Russian model was most commonly chambered for was the 44 Russian cartridge. The original 44 Russian cartridge in my collection is 1.420 long. This cartridge contained a charge of about 23 grains of Black Powder and carried a bullet weighing 246 grains. By this time S&W had settled on a standard cylinder length of about 1.42, or pretty close to 1 7/16".
Here is a photo of an original S&W 2nd Model Russian with a 44 Russian cartridge laid against the cylinder to illustrate the relative lengths.
So the point is, when Smith and Wesson decided to go after a government contract to provide revolvers to the Army in 1875, their tooling was already set up for cylinders 1 7/16" long, and frames to house those cylinders. The Army insisted on a 45 caliber cartridge, and S&W would have no problem opening up the bore of their #3 revolvers from 44 to 45, but there was no way the longer 45 Colt cartridge could be chambered in a cylinder 1 7/16" long. So Smith and Wesson proposed a shorter 45 caliber cartridge to the Army that would fit into their 1 7/16" long cylinders and the Army accepted it. The military designation of the cartridge was Revolver Ball Cartridge, Caliber .45, M1875. This is the cartridge that eventually became known as the 45 Schofield cartridge. The government specifications were it was 1.438 long over all, carrying a 230 grain bullet with a powder charge of 28 grains of Black Powder.
Here is a photo of an original S&W 1st Model Schofield revolver with a 45 Colt cartridge laid against the cylinder, illustrating that the longer cartridge could not fit into the 1 7/16" long cylinder.
Here is the same revolver with a very early copper cased, Benet primed 45 Schofield cartridge laid against the cylinder. This cartridge fits into the cylinder perfectly.
Smith and Wesson's two contracts with the Army to produce the Schofield revolver only resulted in a total of slightly less than 9,000 revolvers being sold to the government. Part of the problem was the cartridge. While the Colt could successfully chamber and fire either cartridge, the Smith and Wesson could only fire the shorter cartridge. By about 1880 the Army decided to get rid of all their Schofield revolvers and they were sold to arms dealers and sold to the commercial market.
In 1878 Smith and Wesson began selling the finest Top Break revolver they had ever made, the New Model Number Three. The most common chambering for the New Model Number Three was the venerable 44 Russian cartridge and at first the 1 7/16" long cylinder was standard.
Here is a photo of a New Model Number Three with a 44 Russian cartridge laid on the cylinder to illustrate the comparative lengths.
However Smith and Wesson had learned a lesson from the Schofield model, and eventually offered a version of the New Model Number Three with a 1 9/16" long cylinder. This cylinder could chamber longer and more powerful cartridges such as the 38-40 and 44-40, which were roughly the same length as the 45 Colt. The 44 Double Action revolver also eventually became available with a 1 9/16" long cylinder, but only about 2000 of them were chambered for 44-40, and only 74 were chambered for 38-40, making it a very rare gun.
But for what ever reason, whether it was pride or just orneriness, none of the large frame Top Break revolvers made by Smith and Wesson were ever chambered for 45 Colt.
What has happened in the modern era is that the current Italian replicas of these revolvers have cylinders long enough to chamber cartridges like 45 Colt and 44-40, but the frames were not stretched a similar amount. Instead the cylinder bushings on the front of the cylinders have been shortened in order to fit the longer cylinders into a frame not much longer than the originals. This shorter cylinder bushing means that the modern replicas tend to bind up when fired with Black Powder, although they perform fine with Smokeless ammunition.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Yeah.
Old Daniel Wesson realized he should have retooled for the Schofield model so it could fire the 45 Colt cartridge. He corrected that mistake with the New Model Number Three.
Old Daniel Wesson realized he should have retooled for the Schofield model so it could fire the 45 Colt cartridge. He corrected that mistake with the New Model Number Three.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy Again
The Schofields made by ASM a number of years ago had problems.
The current Top Breaks made by Uberti are fine.
The Schofields made by ASM a number of years ago had problems.
The current Top Breaks made by Uberti are fine.
BobWright
Member
If I may be so bold:
Bold type my addition. The old Dragoons were pretty large framed revolvers.
Bob Wright
Bold type my addition. The old Dragoons were pretty large framed revolvers.
Bob Wright
BobWright
Member
And for those who have one of the new Smiths in .45 Colt, is the extractor throw long enough to eject the case completely?
Bob Wright
Bob Wright
Corpral_Agarn
Member
Glad to hear this.
My top break from 2009 was nothing but trouble.
I was thinking another one in 38spl would be a kick.
mhblaw
Member
I have one marked "Beretta", works fine and fun to shoot with mild 45 loads. Sights leave a lot to be desired, but then it is not a target revolver. Not sure why I bought it.
It seems a common belief that the Army continued to make (at Frankford Arsenal) and issue the ".45 Colt" cartridge along with the ".45 Schofield" for the Colt and S&W revolvers respectively and that there was confusion over which was issued to which units. That is not true. The Army was well aware of the problems that could exist with two different revolver cartridges, so from c.1875 on they never made or issued any ".45 Colt" length cartridges. The Indian wars were fought entirely with the shorter cartridges. There was a problem, though. Because the ".45 Schofield" had to have a small rim to allow it to be used in the Colt revolver, the rounds sometimes jumped the extractor in the S&W revolver. (The Colt, with its rod extractor, had no problem, of course.)
It was not that common or serious problem with the Schofield, because of the short extractor throw, but when the Army later tried to use its stock of .45 Schofield rounds in the M1909 swing cylinder revolver (made by Colt for the .45 Colt), the extraction problem became acute and they ended up having Frankford make a special cartridge, essentially the .45 Colt with a larger rim, for the 1909 revolver.
Jim
It was not that common or serious problem with the Schofield, because of the short extractor throw, but when the Army later tried to use its stock of .45 Schofield rounds in the M1909 swing cylinder revolver (made by Colt for the .45 Colt), the extraction problem became acute and they ended up having Frankford make a special cartridge, essentially the .45 Colt with a larger rim, for the 1909 revolver.
Jim
gbran
Member
I would love to have the Russian in 45 Colt. I spend a lot of time up in the woods and carry a sidearm. This would be plenty good for what I'd run into, even if limited to low pressure rounds.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
If you are talking about the run of Schofields that S&W made around 2000, they were not chambered for 45 Colt, they were chambered for the original 45 Schofield cartridge.
I do not own an Uberti, so I cannot comment on how long the extractor throw is with those. But I can comment on the extractor throw of the originals. The extractor throw on my original Schofield is not quite enough for empties to completely clear the cylinder. In fact, if one rotates the barrel down so that the barrel is pointing down at the ground when the extractor snaps back into place, there is an excellent chance that an empty will slip back under the extractor, and it is a pain in the butt (and it hurts the fingers) to get it out from under the extractor. And I am worried about what might happen to the 140 year old brazed joint that joins the extractor to the extractor rod as I try to muscle the errant round out from under the extractor.
The 44 Russian brass that my New Model Number Three shoots is slightly shorter than 45 Schofield brass, but even so, I have learned to turn the gun sideways as I rotate the barrel down, so that when the extractor snaps back down there is less chance one will slip under the extractor.
It should be remembered that the extractors on these revolvers were not ejectors. How fast the extractor rose was directly related to how fast you rotated the barrel down. Much like an old Winchester, the faster you worked the action, the faster the empties were ejected. Work the action slowly and they just dribble out. The spring action snaps the extractor back down, but there is no spring to pop the extractor out. Given the age of my Top Break Smiths, I do not rotate the barrel down rapidly, because everything slams to a stop at the end of the stroke. Instead, I rotate the entire gun to a horizontal position as I rotate the barrel down, so that gravity will help with the extraction.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy Again
If it is marked Beretta it is probably the Beretta Laramie.
The Beretta Laramie was not a replica of the Schofield or the Russian, it was a replica of the New Model Number Three. Notice the similarity of the Laramie to my New Model Number Three, particularly the grip shape.
I believe the Beretta Laramie is no longer made, but Taylors is still selling pretty much the same gun.
http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/hand-guns/cartridge-revolvers/schofield-revolvers/new-model-no-3-frontier.html
As for the sights, the Laramie came with a windage adjustable rear sight, which is pretty much all you got in those days, even with the best target revolvers.
This is the rear sight from a 44 Double Action Target Model. This is as good as it got with target sights for Smith and Wesson Top Break revolvers.
By the way, records were set with target model New Model Number Threes that still stand today, even with the relatively crude sights.
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