.45 Colt vs. .45 ACP with heavy bullets in a revolver..

[USSR]

Some of you may have seen a recent Revolver thread that was "scrubbed clean", in which it was being debated as to whether the .45 ACP could be loaded with a .45-270 SAA bullet (270gr SWC) to the same COAL and to the same 1050 - 1100fps velocity as the .45 Colt. Now, without any "rudeness" on my part, I would like to provide photographic proof that the .45 ACP cannot be loaded with this bullet to the same COAL (see below) as the .45 Colt (1.645"), but that aside, does anyone seriously believe that the .45 ACP in a revolver can attain the above velocity with a bullet that heavy? I get that velocity using 18.0gr of 2400 powder out of my S&W 25-5.

Don

 

[ReloaderFred]

I never doubted you, Don, but I think you should send that 25-5 out west for some serious testing over the next few years.......... No need to thank me for the offer..

Fred

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I never doubted you, Don, but I think you should send that 25-5 out west for some serious testing over the next few years.......... No need to thank me for the offer..

Fred

Don,
And once Fred gets done "testing" you can send it over here to PA to see if the results are different in the Northeast. No need to thank me either, I'm just good that way!

Tony

 

[ReloaderFred]

Don,

Just so you know, I'll test it with the new Herters Small Pistol primed brass that I ran across today. It might take me awhile to work up the proper load, so I hope ArchAngelCD won't mind waiting for awhile.........

Fred

PS: I'm serious about finding the SP primed .45 Colt brass. I'd never seen it before.

 

[41 Mag]

Well I cannot say that I have ever even considered loading my 270 SAA into an ACP case, I did load the MP 452-640 with a wide HP at 260grs into some just because they looked like they belonged there. Then after making up a dummy round or two I had the thought to put some downrange, and then I decided to try them against some factory HP's to see how they compared.

Not really a apples to apples test but it was interesting,


( L-R; 230gr Gold Dot, 230gr Hydra Shok, 185gr Star JHP, 255gr MP 452 640 LGHP )



And if your not satisfied with the results of the testing from Fred and Tony, I will also throw my name in the hat to do some testing of loads with your 25-5 down here on the Third Coast so that you will have all around test results both from altitude, humidity, and other atmospheric differences.

Just sayin, I wouldn't want you to worry about things if you had to head down South for any reason.

That would also help me out as well since I am looking hard at picking up a Ruger BH with the convertible cylinders of 45 COlt and 45 ACP. It would almost be like we were doing each other a favor.

 

[USSR]

ReloaderFred and ArchAngelCD,

Really generous of you guys offering to take the 25-5 off my hands. Knew I could count on you.

41 Mag,

Yeah, that MP 452-640 has an awesome hollowpoint. I've got the MP 359-640 and love it. Is your .45-270 SAA the MP clone like mine? If you were to load it into the ACP case for revolver use, how deep would you seat it and what powder would you use? I am thinking maybe HS-6?

Don

 

[Slamfire]

Guess I missed that debate.

In my opinion, if you want to shoot heavy bullets (GT 230 grains) in 45 caliber, don't do it in a 45ACP.

 

[USSR]

In my opinion, if you want to shoot heavy bullets (GT 230 grains) in 45 caliber, don't do it in a 45ACP.

Yeah, pretty much sums it up. Gotta have some case left over to put powder in. However, it could certainly be done in a revolver, and I am curious as to what powder you would use to propel a 255 - 270gr SWC as fast as you can and stay within the 23k psi pressure level of .45 ACP +P ammo? I am thinking something along the line of AA #5 or HS-6? Wish I had a 25-2 or one of the new S&W 625's to test this with.

Don

 

[Walkalong]

If I still had my 625 (Argh, dumb move selling it.) I would test it out, but I'm not doing it in my 25-2.

 

[KansasSasquatch]

If you were to bring John Moses Browning back to life, he'd tell you not to use anything over 200gr. The 230gr ball ammo was Uncle Sam's demand. Personally I think JMB was right, even though I've loaded and shot plenty of 230gr bullets in .45acp, I much prefer 200gr.

 

[USSR]

If I still had my 625 (Argh, dumb move selling it.) I would test it out, but I'm not doing it in my 25-2.

Ah, come on Anthony, take one for the team.

Don

 

[Walkalong]

I wouldn't mind shooting a few 23 PSI loads in my 25-5 here and there, but I baby my 25-2.

 

[41 Mag]

41 Mag,

Yeah, that MP 452-640 has an awesome hollowpoint. I've got the MP 359-640 and love it. Is your .45-270 SAA the MP clone like mine? If you were to load it into the ACP case for revolver use, how deep would you seat it and what powder would you use? I am thinking maybe HS-6?

Yep my 270SAA is the MP also, and I also have the 359 as well in the 640, in fact just got done running around 200 of them through the sizer and Carnuba Red.

If I got the wild hair to seat that SAA into an ACP case I guess I would seat it up to just about the middle of the middle driving band just above the lube groove. As for powder, ya got me there I would ahve to do some head scratchin and studyin on it for a while to come up with something.

The above load where I used the 452-640, I used some of the surplus powder Salut, I think it was around 5 grains. Yep here is the post I made back when I tested them,
Cast-against-Condoms

That powder burns right with my lot of Unique, but it meters and burns SO MUCH BETTER, I sure wished I had picked up several more orders of it.
Back to the powder though, yep you would definitely want something a bit slower than Unique for sure.

 

[USSR]

If I got the wild hair to seat that SAA into an ACP case I guess I would seat it up to just about the middle of the middle driving band just above the lube groove.

Makes sense.

The above load where I used the 452-640, I used some of the surplus powder Salut, I think it was around 5 grains.

I believe that was the Russian surplus that was advertised as the Russian Unique, Yes?

As for powder, ya got me there I would ahve to do some head scratchin and studyin on it for a while to come up with something. ...yep you would definitely want something a bit slower than Unique for sure.

We might want to consult with somebody who has the QuickLoad interior ballistics software once we have a COAL established. Anybody?

Don

 

[SDGlock23]

I don't think the same OAL would work, but you could load it long(er) than something you'd stuff in a bottom feeder. My .45 Super from a 5" well supported barrel can sling a 275gr Hunters Supply hardcast at 1,200 fps using 800x, but it's not ACP brass nor is it loaded as long as a .45 Colt. It's not a 23K PSI load, more likely 35K or 40K PSI.

There is an article, and although it doesn't talk about heavy bullets like that, it is a Ruger Blackhawk using 460 Rowland data in .45 ACP brass in the extra .45 ACP cylinder. I'll find the link...

http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=41


I've got a Ruger Bisley with an extra .45 ACP cylinder but I've never tried to shoot the heavier stuff through it, although I don't see how it would be an issue. Probably wouldn't shoot any of it in a S&W though. I know several who do load ACP brass up to and over the 30K psi mark but I don't myself.

 

[eldon519]

I don't think there is any point or reason to reload .45 ACP to act like a .45 Colt +P but I will play devil's advocate.

For the sake of argument, it's worth noting that your 270 SAA @ 1.645" is over SAAMI max (1.600").

Additionally, if you actually went HEAVIER, the bullets might be long enough to seat in a .45 ACP while hovering around the 1.6" COL. I would guess though that you would not be able to get enough bullet in the case to provide enough resistance for good ignition with magnum powders. You definitely couldn't crimp it either other than a hard taper crimp. The lube groove would definitely be fully out of the case which has its own problems too.

 

[USSR]

I don't think there is any point or reason to reload .45 ACP to act like a .45 Colt +P but I will play devil's advocate.

Agree, but this whole thread is predicated on someone saying that the .45-270 SAA bullet could be loaded in the .45 ACP to the same COAL as the .45 Colt and could therefor attain the same velocity.

For the sake of argument, it's worth noting that your 270 SAA @ 1.645" is over SAAMI max (1.600").

Yep, but it's crimped in the crimp groove and is not too long for the cylinder, so all is well.

Additionally, if you actually went HEAVIER, the bullets might be long enough to seat in a .45 ACP while hovering around the 1.6" COL. I would guess though that you would not be able to get enough bullet in the case to provide enough resistance for good ignition with magnum powders. You definitely couldn't crimp it either other than a hard taper crimp. The lube groove would definitely be fully out of the case which has its own problems too.

Yes, that is why it almost has to be hard taper crimped on the middle driving band as 41 Mag mentioned.

Don

 

[eldon519]

I don't have the benefit of having seen the original thread so I was just playing along but after owning a Freedom Arms 97 which only has a cylinder about 1.63" long if memory serves me, I've had to do some tinkering myself with COL and seek out some oddball data to verify what can be accomplished.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

For those asking about loads and powders, John Taffin has a good article on loading the 45 acp for revolvers. http://www.sixguns.com/range/45ACPSixguns.htm

He doesn't show the 270 gr pill, but does show 2 loads with the Lyman #454424KT, 260 gr Keith style. The charges for those only give 900-926 fps. As much as John loves hard hitting loads, even he stopped well short of the 1,100 fps mentioned. Since there is no mention of OAL, I assume he was seating in the crimp groove.

I personally think that loading the 270 gr for 1,100 fps in the 45 acp case is bad juju. I won't stop anyone from trying, but they won't be using my model 25 to shoot it.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I personally think that loading the 270 gr for 1,100 fps in the 45 acp case is bad juju. I won't stop anyone from trying, but they won't be using my model 25 to shoot it.

I've been known to load some, ummmm "questionable" loads in my time but I would not try that! As for guns, it might be alright to shoot that load in a 454 Casull. (will a 45 Auto case chamber in a 454 Casull revolver?) In any case I think you get my meaning...

 

[USSR]

For those asking about loads and powders, John Taffin has a good article on loading the 45 acp for revolvers. http://www.sixguns.com/range/45ACPSixguns.htm

He doesn't show the 270 gr pill, but does show 2 loads with the Lyman #454424KT, 260 gr Keith style. The charges for those only give 900-926 fps. As much as John loves hard hitting loads, even he stopped well short of the 1,100 fps mentioned. Since there is no mention of OAL, I assume he was seating in the crimp groove.

I personally think that loading the 270 gr for 1,100 fps in the 45 acp case is bad juju. I won't stop anyone from trying, but they won't be using my model 25 to shoot it.

Thanks for that link, Jesse. Yes, there's no doubt that there's no way you are going to reach any wheres near 1100fps, despite what the guy in the other thread claimed. The ~900fps that was obtained in the article with the 454424 bullet is about what I was expecting is the best that could be done all along, and there is no way I would try for more. Too bad the info doesn't include OAL and approximate pressure data. I'm surprised that he was able to get 15gr of 2400 in the case.

Don

 

[Jesse Heywood]

As for guns, it might be alright to shoot that load in a 454 Casull.

While you could probably shoot the round in a Casull, you would need a range rod turned to the chamber to drive out the cases. Maybe you could borrow someone's gun to test.

I'm surprised that he was able to get 15gr of 2400 in the case.

John is a strong guy. Probably didn't even need a cheater bar to seat the bullet!

 

[orionengnr]

I wouldn't mind shooting a few 23 PSI loads in my 25-5 here and there

23 psi? Pretty sure I could fart that hard...

 

[Walkalong]

Not in your wildest dreams, but I get your point.