45 GAP Review

[tiberius]

Tiberius,

Do you have access to or have you ever seen a serious firearm decibel chart with distances? If not, yawn...

No I don't have one. I would be interested though. If I had one I would happily provide it to the community.

I am NOT criticizing your review. The opposite actually, let me say now “Good Jobâ€. I did read the thread after all.

I have no idea what your background is, but I guarantee that the vast majority of people reading this thread have limited understanding of or experience with SPL measurements. The data you posted a few posts up is completely useless and they should know this so as not to be mislead.

 

[petej88]

Tiberius stated:

"I have no idea what your background is, but I guarantee that the vast majority of people reading this thread have limited understanding of or experience with SPL measurements. The data you posted a few posts up is completely useless and they should know this so as not to be mislead."

Well, thanks for your view. The chart is based on:
"Now hear This!", by Ralph Mroz, Combat Handguns, Sep 1998

The article appeared to be put together well enough. I'll keep the chart because you have not convinced me that the sound data is worthless. I maintain that it's a good general reference chart. If either of us finds something better, we can update it.

Would you suggest that I remove the chart and just go by range experience in comparing the distinctive sounds of various calibers? I'm sure not going to remove my statement that the 45 is quieter than several other duty rounds because that is easy enough to prove.

 

[tiberius]

Would you suggest that I remove the chart and just go by range experience in comparing the distinctive sounds of various calibers? I'm sure not going to remove my statement that the 45 is quieter than several other duty rounds because that is easy enough to prove.

Yes, that would be more accurate than the table you provided because it would HONESTLY be subjective. It is actually valuable information to someone who has never fired these rounds.

There's no need to be so defensive. Ralph Mroz probably doesn't know any better, but if that is the data he provided, then it should be ignored. I DO trust your SUBJECTIVE appraisal though because it is presented as subjective and is perfectly reasonable.

 

[Old Fuff]

Hi Tuner ....

Those who are interested in a 5-shot/.45 snubby need look no further then the Taurus USA website to see how the concept works.

If other manufacturers other then Glock come out with some inovative ultra-compact pistols, and maybe even some revolvers the cartridge will take off. If not, it probably won't. However I don't think that the G-37 will turn out to be the last word.

 

[cratz2]

With as controversial topic as the 45GAP cargridge, whodathunk that it would have diverted into a lukewarm flame war over SPLs of various cartridges?

Here's all you need to know about SPLs... Always practice with your protection on. If you're in your home and there's a bad guy coming at you and your wife and kids swinging an axe, shoot the bastard regardless of what cartridge you have.

In my first hand experience, the smaller lighter cartridges are louder and induces ringing of the ears (tinnitus) for a longer duration than slower cartridges esp those under the speed of sound. And I'm pretty sure that most every serious defensive chambering has subsonic loads possibly excepting the 357 SIG.

 

[George Hill]

Drop the Noise issue people. Please...
Let's not get completely anal about some information just because it doesn't have the noise data at different ranges.
PLEASE!

It is a good review and I don't need any guys in white lab coats and pocket protectors with microphones wandering around my range while I shoot.

 

[JohnKSa]

I dunno, the .45 GAP just doesn't do it for me. When i bought mu USP .40 it was using the mindset: almost as much power as a .45, but with a higher magazine capacity. The GAP is almost as much power as a .45...but....well, that's about it.

Huh?

The reviews I've seen put the .45GAP faster or as fast as the .45ACP in the bullet weights that loadings are currently available. That means instead of having "almost as much power than the .45", it actually has as much or more power than the .45ACP.

And the mag capacity IS larger than most 45 pistols on the market while the gun is still about the size of a typical .40S&W pistol.

So, the reasons you liked your .40 apply even more so to the 45GAP. Unless I'm missing something...

 

[DrDremel]

I don't see any benefit to the slightly shorter round. The grip can be made smaller on guns other than Glocks for the .45 already. Since the frame and mag are both plastic, they need to be thicker. HK understood this and made their USP with a metal mag to keep from increasing the grip. SInce their frame is plastic as well, it is huge too. Glock would have been much better off taking the R&D money and making thinner pistols period. A glock with the thickness of a Kahr or even close would be a huge improvement.

 

[JohnKSa]

DrDremel,

1. H&K USP mags are plastic.
2. A 45 cal pistol with grips as thin as a Kahr would have to have a grip about 6" long to hold 10 rounds.
3. The thinnest pistol on the market has a plastic frame and grip. Keltec P32
4. The second thinnest pistol on the market has a plastic frame and grip. Keltec P3AT
5. Polymer grip frames allow thinner grips than normal. This is how the Glock 17 holds 2 more rounds than any other 9mm on the market without having a grip that is significantly longer or thicker than average.

I'm beginning to get the distinct impression that the reasons people are attacking this cartridge/gun combo have NOTHING to do with performance/size issues.

 

[NMGlocker]

1. H&K USP mags are plastic.

Factory H&K USP45 magazines are metal.
I should know, I own 4 of them.

5. Polymer grip frames allow thinner grips than normal. This is how the Glock 17 holds 2 more rounds than any other 9mm on the market without having a grip that is significantly longer or thicker than average.

And polymer magazines are significantly thicker than steel magazines.
My Walther P99 carries 16+1 and has a significantly thinner grip than a Glock 17 at 17+1, the difference is steel vs. polymer magazines.

I'm beginning to get the distinct impression that the reasons people are attacking this cartridge/gun combo have NOTHING to do with performance/size issues.

I get the distinct impression that you have many of your "facts" incorrect.

 

[petej88]

Hey you HK USP owners: Can any of you dig up the grip measurements on the USP 40 and 45, so we could compare the numbers with page two where the G21 and G17 are measured. That would be very interesting.

 

[JohnKSa]

Factory H&K USP45 magazines are metal.

I have a USP9 and the factory mags are plastic. I should know, I own about 10 of them.

Ok, I've never handled a USP45 and didn't have any idea that the mags were of different composition in different calibers. Offhand, I don't know of any other gun where that is the case.

polymer magazines are significantly thicker than steel magazines.

Hmmm...

I reread my post and can't see that I made any comments about the thickness of polymer mags versus steel mags

I get the distinct impression that you have many of your "facts" incorrect.

Very clever little ding--but incorrect. I didn't have any facts wrong. The USP indeed has polymer mags--he didn't specify which USP and the USP9 which I am familiar with clearly has polymer mags.

And on the second count, while you may be right, you're not contradicting me--I never commented on the thickness of polymer mags versus metal mags.

Clearly, the combination of polymer frame and polymer mag can be very efficient in terms of capacity to grip size--the G17 and G19 prove that. I didn't say that it is the MOST efficient--in fact, if you read my post, you'll see that the two pistols that I listed as being the slimmest both have polymer grips and metal mags.

Seems like you're in an awful rush to dismiss my post. Why is that?

 

[BluesBear]

The reviews I've seen put the .45gap faster or as fast as the .45acp in the bullet weights that loadings are currently available. That means instead of having "almost as much power than the .45", it actually has as much or more power than the .45acp.

How? Since the major difference is the OAL (Over All Length) while the diameter is the same, that would mean for the same bullet weight there would be slightly less case capacity. You should be able to duplicate any .45gap load in .45acp. Since the slightly less case capacity is just that, slight, the pressures will be about the same although certain .45acp loads could show noticably increased pressures if loaded in the slightly smaller .45gap.
For the .45gap to have more power than the .45acp higher pressures are needed.


To load the .45gap to higher pressures is courting disaster since the .45gap can fit the magazines and chambers of .45acp weapons.

 

[petej88]

The P99 45 is about the same size as a Glock 37 and it holds 9 ACP rounds -- close but no cigar. How do the USP grips compare to te Glock 17? Maybe I'll have to make a visit to the gun shop if nobody has some actual facts. Doesn't the compcat USP hold 8 and the big guy can hold up to 12, but the grip is bigger right? Does the USP 45 get many complaints about the grip size, similar to the G21 45?

 

[JohnKSa]

Bluesbear,

The key is that I said 45ACP. 45ACP is a pistol cartridge defined by SAAMI and that definition includes a pressure limit.

There's no question that it's possible to exceed GAP performance using 45ACP components, however, you can't do it and stay within the SAAMI limits. At least, current standard pressure 45ACP isn't doing it.

Another example of this is the 260 Remington vs. the 6.5x55 Swede. The Swede has more case capacity, but is loaded lightly enough that the 260 with less case capacity equals or exceeds the Swede's performance.

Or, another example. It's certainly possible to come up with a load using 38special components that exceeds the performance of some current .357 mag ammunition. Even though the .38 special doesn't have the case capacity of the .357, the .357 isn't taking full advantage of it's case capacity in most loadings. Of course, to do this, you'd have to throw SAAMI out the window.

In short, the issue is one of standards. The performance of standard pressure 45ACP can be equaled or exceeded by the 45GAP even though it has less case capacity because the GAP has a higher pressure limit.

This is similar to what happened with the 10mm and the 40S&W. The 40S&W was designed to equal the FBI loading of the 10mm. There's no way that the shorter 40 can ever match the performance of the 10mm cartridge at it's full potential. It COULD match the performance of the most popular loadings. In the case of the GAP, it's matching the performance of the 45ACP standard pressure loadings as defined by SAAMI.

I dunno about the issues of loading the GAP into a 45ACP chamber, but I'm guessing that unless the crimp is real tight, the freebore in the ACP chamber (caused by the shorter round) should drop the pressure down quite a bit.

I am making the assumption that the GAP is loaded to higher pressures--I don't have a quotable source to verify this but I think that the assumption is warranted.

Anyway, from the muzzle end of the gun, the GAP is every bit as potent as the 45ACP with factory ammo. From the shooter's end, it carries and feels like a 40S&W and has 10+1 capacity. It's pretty much a no-lose situation...

 

[BluesBear]

JohnKSa,

So I guess you didn't read all of petej88's review?
Especially the part about pressures.

As I recall from reading in other sources as well is that the .45gap is supposed to perform in the same pressure range as .45acp.

And regarding freebore...
pressurewise 3 millimeters ain't much freebore.
The bullet will still be engaging the rifling at the peak or the pressure curve.

I wouldn't be holding my breath waiting for the .45gap to outdo the .45acp.

 

[petej88]

The max pressure for the GAP is 23,000 psi, the same as +P ACP. Reloading of the GAP also works great in the equivalent ACP standard pressures (under 21,000 psi). Hodgdon has some GAP loads as low a 16000 psi or so.

Starline makes two different cases for the ACP. One for standard pressure and one for +P loads.

Interesting ideas on this thread:
The 3mm shorter GAP caliber is a solution looking for a problem, & the GAP based G37 grip has very little size difference with the G21 grip.

Hummmh: 3mm ain't much and their ain't much difference in a 9/40 grip compared to a little tiny bit larger 45 doubstack grip??? BUT THOSE DIFFERENCES are what makes it possible for the GAP to fit into a 9/40 sized frame while an ACP or even an old 45HP CANNOT!
The 45 ACP measures 1.260â€. The 45 HP measures 1.220†- 1.229â€. The 45 GAP measures 1.060†- 1.080â€. These measurements should give you a really good hint why a GAP was made for the 9/40 frame, hopefully.

The Glock 21 and HK USP 45 are both excellent 45 ACP pistols capable of easily holding more than 10 ACP rounds each. But the grips are slightly larger and/or longer than the 9/40 sized grips and that’s the whole point. You can put 10 45GAP rounds into a 9/40 sized frame grip. It’s really that simple. This is almost as much fun as when we were filling up threads debatting whether the GAP was a .43" or .45" caliber bullet and what all that meant, and why would they do that, etc.

Don’t just think Glock when we are talking about the 45GAP. Think all brands. Take your time. Let it sink in slowly. If you still don't like the GAP and don't think it has enough potential to excite you in some way in a full size 10+1 gun or a pocket rocket holding 6+1 big fat bullets, that's fair enough. Then stick with your excellent USP or Glock 21 or whatever. cheers

 

[DrDremel]

JohnKSa,

1. USP mags are only plastic on 9 and 40. Since they have no bearing on the discussion of .45 caliber pistol size, they are not an issue. HK went with Metal mags on the .45 cal because the grip would be too big.

2. I never said that the gun had to hold 10 rounds, just that the market would prefer a slimmer pistol overall, the 36 is one of the widest single stack .45 caliber pistols around.

3. The pistol you mention is a .32, not a .45. That is the reason for it's thin profile, along with a NON-PLASTIS mag. (starting to see a picture?)

4. The gun you mention is not the thinnest or second thinnest but simply the ones you are familiar with. The thinnest pistols are steel. But this is not a plastic vs. steel debate. Simply that Glock did not reduce the width of the OVERALL gun as this would be the biggest benefit.

5. Not exactly. The grip on a Glock is simply a little longer to fit the 17 rounds.

It seems that you have made up your mind that this is the answer and now you are busy making up questions ( and facts) the back it up.

 

[JohnKSa]

Bluesbear,

45GAP pressures are similar to 45ACP +P pressures, not to standard pressure 45ACP.

DrDremel,

1. Ok, so on 2 out of three I'm right. Consider me spanked...

2. Ok, so increased capacity means nothing to you. A poor assumption on my part and another point to the Dr.

3. Yes, the P32 is a 32ACP. What a gun whiz you must be.

4. I guess I can't claim to have measured every gun ever made. You're right again. You're really tearing me up here.

5. Longer than what? It's not appreciably longer than the other fullsize 9mms in my safe. But since you don't say what you're comparing it to, I can't prove you wrong, so I guess you must be right again.

Happy now?

 

[George Hill]

This thread is done.