45 GAP Review

[petej88]

JohnKSa,

Sounds like both statements are right. The G37 grip is a little bit smaller than the G21 grip, and is essentially the same size as a G17 grip. If you look at item 5 in the article, it goes into this a bit.

The heavy G21 slide has been beveled to blend into the G17/G22/G31 frame very nicely. I've seen first hand that a lot of folks don't even notice that the frame is oversized.

 

[SnWnMe]

I think of it as a 45ACP top mated to a 9mm sized frame.

 

[JohnKSa]

If that's true (and I believe you) then how can people say that it's only a tiny bit smaller than the G21.

I would never characterize the G17 grip as being only slightly smaller than the G20/G21 grip. Short of a Desert Eagle, I haven't held many auto pistols with a larger grip than the G20/21, but the G17 is only slightly on the large side for a full size 9mm grip.

 

[petej88]

JohnKSa stated:
"If that's true (and I believe you) then how can people say that it's only a tiny bit smaller than the G21."

Well, you can think of it as lawyers in a court room. If you measure the G21 grip and G17 grip, it does not sound like much of a difference, even though they each can feel quite different in your hand. The lawyer against the GAP will emphasize that the measurement is inconsequential. The lawyer for the GAP emphasizes not only the measurement but the feel in the hand. The bottom line is that you can't fit a 45 ACP cartridge in a Glock 17 frame and still get 10 rounds without some major changes in the Glock grip and probably the mags. But I don't want to get into the year old argument of how stupid Glock was making a stupid cartridge and stupid G37, if you know what I mean. Let's just deal with what we have.

In my article, I point to gunblast.com article on the G37/Gap duo. He sums it up well with his chart:

Glock 21 .45 ACP Glock 37 .45 GAP
Magazine Thickness 1.15 inch 0.904 inch
Grip Circumference 7.75 inches 7.375 inches
Grip Thickness 1.292 inches 1.182 inches
Grip Front to Back 2.155 inches 2.08 inches
Trigger Reach 2.938 inches 2.793 inches
Barrel Length 4.605 inches 4.59 inches


As seen in the chart, the numerical differences are small, but they do make a significant difference in the feel of the weapon. It's really that simple.

 

[Blueduck]

I'll leave the merit of the gun for the capitalist system to decide but as we seem to have some knowlegeable folks on the G-37 around...

Can somone please explain why they had to use the big honking G-21 slide instead of a slimmer G-36 type which seems could be made to fit evenly on top of the G-37's frame???

 

[petej88]

Apparently there was a major issue with slide cycle time with the g22 sized slide. Glock had to use the larger slide (beveled down to mate to the g22 frame) in order to tame it. The heavy slide and strong recoil spring now make a very tough pistol to handle the high momentum fat 45 bullet.
If other companies make GAP pistols, it should be interesting to see how they handle this situation.

 

[Blueduck]

Thanks!

 

[WonderNine]

I hope the .45GAP creates a movement to load .45ACP hotter and strengthen the guns that fire it, it'll never happen, but ah I can always dream. It seems like there's alot of wasted space in the case. Hey that rhymes!

Something with a warning like +P...."only fire in .45ACP v2.0 pistols".

 

[petej88]

The only two pistols I know of that can handle +P 45 ACP rounds well are the HK USP and the Glock 21.

 

[Majic]

I see that a couple of times the GAP was refered to as having a lower sound decibel in firing over the other standard defensive cartridges, but no data was provided to support it. Are there any actual numbers so a comparasion could be seen?

 

[BluesBear]

I guess all of those thousands of +P rounds I have put through my Colt's over the years were a mistake?

And all of that .45acp +P ammo sold by all of those manufacturers are only supposed to be fired in HKs & Glocks?

 

[1911Tuner]

GAP Snubby

Maddock said:

I really like 1911Tuner’s idea of a 45GAP snubby.

Yeah! It could be named: "The Gaston Toy Bulldog"
I'm gettin' a visual here....Can anybody else see it?
For that matter, it could be chambered for .45 ACP and
give the owner/shooter a choice of ammo.

Any of the arms makers HEAR this???

 

[BluesBear]

"The Gaston Toy Bulldog"

A polymer frame revolver?



You can tell it's MATTEL®... It's SWELL!

 

[clubsoda22]

I dunno, the .45 GAP just doesn't do it for me. When i bought mu USP .40 it was using the mindset: almost as much power as a .45, but with a higher magazine capacity. The GAP is almost as much power as a .45...but....well, that's about it. I just don't see it catching on like the .40 did, then again, no one foresaw the .40 catching on like it did.

It might be interesting in a compact pistol, but i was thinking, on something the size of a Glock 26/27. Would i rather have a .45 GAP or a couple more shots of .40?

 

[1911Tuner]

Toy Bulldog

lol BluesBear...Not toy as in Mattel...Toy as in...small. In deference to
the old (1920s) Middleweight boxing champ, Mickey Walker. Dubbed
"The Rumson Toy Bulldog" because he was compact, tough, hit like a
mule, and wouldn't give up.

Heavyweight champ Jack Dempsey told one contender who was scheduled to 12 rounds with the tough little Irishman: "Get ready for the fight of your life. You'll have to kill him to make him stop."

Just a little trivia tossed into the soup. If anyone is interested, here is the
account of Walker's loss to Harry Greb. Greb, as a middleweight, nearly
killed Gene Tunney, the fighter who took Dempsey's title in 1926. He
fought Greb as a training bout before he faced Dempsey, since Greb's
swarming tactics were similar. Sorry for going off-topic...

http://www.harrygreb.com/homepagewithframeset.html

Cheers!
Tuner

 

[W Turner]

I have been watching the G37 debacle with interest, but haven't been able to justify buying one for myself yet primarily because I have big hands and have never had a problem with any double stack .45.

I think this cartridge will come into it's own after more companies get on board in regards to both the ammo and the platforms. I would love to see a Kahr-sized pocket rocket on the horizon and a 5-shot scandium K-frame snubby on the way from SW. What I am waiting for is a true Glock 26/27 sized carry gun in .45GAP. Imagine being able to carry a ~6 rnd. .45 caliber semi-auto on your ANKLE that you know will go bang every time.

As far as ammo development is concerned I would love to see a 155-165 gr. .45 caliber bullet in compact weapons that 90% of the population out there can really use.

I know we have officer's models in .45acp, but the reliability is more often than not suspect and the other makers (with the exception of the Sig P245, Glock 36 and SW 457) are just modifications of double stack designs and the 1911 platform is not for everyone.

Mino

 

[cratz2]

Well, as cheap as Glocks are to actually build (after R&D and tooling is made up) even if only a few law enforcement agencies decide on it, they'll still probably make some decent money on it.

The biggest thing I see is with all the countries that have adopted the G17 or G19 as the (or an) official militarty sidearm and all the law enforcement agencies that have adopted the G17, G19, G21, G22, G23 etc... I wonder how many G37s they will be able to sell?

Comparing the last five years to the next five years, I can't see G37 sales even approaching the sales figures of any single model 17, 19, 21, 22 or 23.

Like I say, I guess variety is always good. I'm glad the 357 SIG is available though I seriously doubt I'll ever own one. The 45GAP is fine to have around though, again, I can't see ever buying one unless something really spiffy comes along. And for Glock, I guess money is money. And it's employing more people to make them and the ammo so that's good.

Never even having shot one, I guess I'm more of a fan of the cartridge than the current platform even though I have nothing at all against Glocks.

 

[petej88]

BluesBear,

I didn't mean to sound like I was speaking in absolute terms when I said, "The only two pistols I know of....". I just happen to know about these pistols from lots of experience, and from listening to some LEO's who have tried various other brands. The 1911 single action is sweet but I gave it up two decades ago, mostly because I'm a hobbyist that likes to play with new things, hence the 45GAP at this time. A few years ago, I studied and tested the 357 SIG very heavily

Majic,

Regarding some sound proof. I've proven it to myself by shooting 45's, 9's, 40's, and 357's side by side. I've especially enjoyed shooting the 357 at low pressure, medium pressure, and high pressure. The difference in sound at each level is phenomenal.

Lastly, here is a chart I will incorporate into the article (see item 2):

Here's a short list of Environmental Noise decibel ratings:

dB
Environmental Noise

10
Normal breathing

50
Interior home noise

70
Crowded restaurant

80
City traffic

85
Hearing Damage Possible

90
Lawn mower

120
Threshold of Pain

120
Siren

130
Jackhammer

140
Jet engine at takeoff

152
.22 pistol

156
12 gauge shotgun

157
.45 ACP pistol

160
9mm pistol

164
.357 Magnum revolver


The decibel scale is a logarithmic scale, not a linear one. Each increase of 3 dB corresponds to sound that has twice as much energy (measured in pascals). Each 10 dB increase corresponds to a 10-fold increase in energy.

Loudness is a subjective thing. People might perceive a particular sound to be twice as loud when there is actually a 10-fold increase in energy. Most people cannot perceive differences in loudness of less than 3 dB. For me, a 45 sounds like a short low pitched thunder while a 9 sounds more like a short higher pitched scream.

 

[Majic]

I understand db ratings as I work in industrial hazardous noise areas. I was asking if you had the actual db numbers that a .45 GAP would create when fired. Incorporating the EPA db ratings chart into your article serves no purpose if there is no actual data refering to the .45 GAP listed.

 

[cratz2]

Not that I condone or recommend it, but I have shot 22LR, 38 Special, 9mm and 45ACP outdoors without hearing protection on occasion and to my ears the 115 or 124 Gr 9mm ball sounds WAY louder than 45ACP ball ammo. And 12 gauge doesn't sound as bad as any of the rest.

The only one I will fire without hearing protection is 22lr or 12 gauge.

 

[petej88]

Majic stated:

"Incorporating the EPA db ratings chart into your article serves no purpose if there is no actual data refering to the .45 GAP listed."

I would disagree with you that the chart has no merit. It gives one an excellent view of the standard calibers. At medium reloaded pressures, the GAP would be identical to the 45 in the chart.

If someone has the gear to measure the decibels of the GAP at full power and medium power loads, please let me know. Actually, an updated chart showing standad 9 and +P 9 would be useful, as well as the regular and hot 40's. Remember, I'm just a hobbyist with zero financing. But I do have ears and know there are big differences in the various calibers

 

[Majic]

I would disagree with you that the chart has no merit. It gives one an excellent view of the standard calibers.

No where in the chart is there any data on the cartridge that is being reviewed. A general overview of the other cartridges would be good only if they could be compared to the .45 GAP. This was done in explaining the design of the gun and in the loading information. You commented on the issue of the cartridge having a lower db than other service cartridges. The chart should reflect this to support your claims to be a meaningful reference. As it reads now it doesn't pertain to the specifics of the article.

 

[petej88]

Majic,

Maybe you didn't notice, but my Review is not a legal document.

I repeat that the chart is useful, although dated. In the meantime, visit me and I can prove it to you at the range, although I couldn't create an official pie chart to make management happy. One can also extrapolate GAP info into the chart based on similar pressures to the 45, at least in its medium loads. I concur with you that an updated chart would be useful. I do not have access to creating such a chart. I will use what I have currently until something better is available. Thanks for your suggestion.

 

[tiberius]

My 2 cents: Any "chart" of sound pressure level (SPL) without distances is completely meaningless. Any serious data always includes distance beacuse SPL drops dramatically (squared) with distance. A typical data point will be like: "120 dB at 30cm". Posting things like "jet engine at takeoff" and "lawn mower" is pure deception unless they are normalized for distance.

Regarding the.45 GAP.......yawn.

 

[petej88]

Tiberius,

Do you have access to or have you ever seen a "serious" firearm decibel chart with distances? If not, yawn...