Bula
Member
And you will not likely find the bullet either...
Either will do what you need, but if you're like most I know, you'll end up owning both.
45 Long Colt vs 44 mag
- Thread starter ExAgoradzo
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And you will not likely find the bullet either...
Either will do what you need, but if you're like most I know, you'll end up owning both.
Remo223
member
Who cares about sectional density in a handgun?
Gaskets fail. Seems to me it would be possible to rupture a thin walled case if you have a stretched top strap and lots of end shake.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Anybody who hunts more than paper targets.
Got any evidence to support the theory that the .45Colt's case is "weak"? If you do, you're the only one.
Remo223
member
Sectional density gives you effective range and thus flatter trajectory in rifles...and penetration against hard targets. Against targets made of meat penetration is moot. With a handgun, trajectory is nearly moot.Anybody who hunts more than paper targets.
Got any evidence to support the theory that the .45Colt's case is "weak"? If you do, you're the only one.
Cases fail all the time in semi-auto guns. All it takes is an unsupported area and high pressure. Common sense should tell you a big enough gap between rear of cylinder and breech face would give you an unsupported area. Especially if you have a cylinder machined for moon clips and you are not using moon clips.
Arkansas Paul
Member
For the people who think .45 cases are weak, remember, Dick Casull did his testing for the .454 Casull with .45 Colt brass. He likely would have noticed if the cases had been weak.
Remo223
member
He likely would not if he was using a decent gun...which he most likely was...and a single action at that. I don't think there's too many single actions out there machined for moon clips.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Sectional density is what yields deep penetration with non-expanding bullets. Has nothing to do with trajectory. Are you thinking ballistic coefficient???
Uh, what???
He certainly was. Casull is a world class gunsmith and was utilizing custom Colt single actions with scratch-built five-shot cylinders and special heat treatment.
What are you talking about? Who said anything about the .45ACP? If you don't know the difference, you probably should bow out of this discussion.
No, wrong again.
Remo223, you really don't know what you're talking about, do you?
I shoot numerous ruger 44mags, ruger 45 colt, and 454 freedom arms built by mr. Casull.
You can load up the 45lc in the ruger to 44mag velocities but remember the chamber walls are thinner cause of the larger bullet diameter. I shoot 45 lc in my casull a lot cause the brass is cheaper. Please do not compare a ruger to the casull. The strength and fitting of the casull is the best you will ever find in a pistol...If you handle one and work the action you would agree with me. They are so tight(not always good if you are in dirty enviroment) that a nick on the case rim or primer protruding a couple of thousands will keep the cylinder from rotatng. Rugers and colts feel like junk after you spend some time with a casull...don't get me wrong I like the rugers and colts but they will blow up if you get too hot.
You can load up the 45lc in the ruger to 44mag velocities but remember the chamber walls are thinner cause of the larger bullet diameter. I shoot 45 lc in my casull a lot cause the brass is cheaper. Please do not compare a ruger to the casull. The strength and fitting of the casull is the best you will ever find in a pistol...If you handle one and work the action you would agree with me. They are so tight(not always good if you are in dirty enviroment) that a nick on the case rim or primer protruding a couple of thousands will keep the cylinder from rotatng. Rugers and colts feel like junk after you spend some time with a casull...don't get me wrong I like the rugers and colts but they will blow up if you get too hot.
Remo223
member
to post #34:
Yes I do. You seem to be very good at being stubborn. and playing dumb. Definitely have the passive aggressive rudeness down pat. Sectional density is related to coefficient. You should know that if you know anything about coefficent. ACP? who said anything about 45ACP? Surely you are not so naive that you think only ACP rounds are used with moon clips? If you are going to persist in this silly stubbornness maybe I will just refrain from reading your silly nonsense. I know exactly who Casull is. You are wasting a lecture my boy.
Yes I do. You seem to be very good at being stubborn. and playing dumb. Definitely have the passive aggressive rudeness down pat. Sectional density is related to coefficient. You should know that if you know anything about coefficent. ACP? who said anything about 45ACP? Surely you are not so naive that you think only ACP rounds are used with moon clips? If you are going to persist in this silly stubbornness maybe I will just refrain from reading your silly nonsense. I know exactly who Casull is. You are wasting a lecture my boy.
MR_A
Member
I have 2 Ruger Vaqueros 1st models in 45 colt and I reload everything from 200 gr. to 250 gr. up to max loads and have never had any problems recoil is light to moderate nothing like the punishing recoil of the 44 mag. I do not hunt with them but I use to belong to sass and have fired many hundreds of rounds in each. I find the 45 colt a pleasure to shoot especially with light target or cowboy loads loads.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Stubborn and playing dumb???
Then maybe you can explain to us the mooncip comment and how that could ever possibly be relevant???
Then explain to us how sectional density is unimportant and not a critical factory affecting penetration.
Then explain to all us dummies how penetration is unimportant.
The answer is no, you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Some of us don't have to be reminded that five-shot conversions exist. For this stuff is part of our every day.
Then maybe you can explain to us the mooncip comment and how that could ever possibly be relevant???
Then explain to us how sectional density is unimportant and not a critical factory affecting penetration.
Then explain to all us dummies how penetration is unimportant.
The answer is no, you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Some of us don't have to be reminded that five-shot conversions exist. For this stuff is part of our every day.
evan price
Member
I guess you never heard of the 445 super mag., or the .444 Marlin.DM said:
DM [/quote]
Sure, and I've heard of 454 Casull and 460 S&W Magnum.
CraigC said:
Is the difference between the SDs significant in terms of terminal performance? What I get from this is that if you compare the heaviest bullets for both cartridges, the .45 Colt has 92% of the SD, 92% of the velocity, 98% of the TKO but only 74% of the maximum chamber pressure (had to look up those values). In practical terms, the .45 Colt and .44 Magnum can be pushed to just about the same performance levels. Choices for powder, cases and bullets are plentiful. They're both accurate cartridges, rifles are chambered and available for each, they're easy to load for, and they're both devastating on two or four-legged critters. So what was the question?
DM~
Member
I'm unclear how your answer to my question relates to your statement that the 44 mag cartridge "maxes" out the velocity of a .430" bullet?
If the 44 mag cartridges maxes out the .430" bullet and more velocity won't get you anything, doesn't the Supermag and 444 Marlin prove that statement wrong?
My .444 Marlin pushes a bullet a heck of a lot faster than any 44 mag can, and it extends the range of the .430" bullet by quite a bit!
DM
robctwo
Member
I bought a .45 Colt Taurus SAA a few years ago. Not very accurate with any loads, and I tried a bunch.
A couple years went by, bought the 20" Puma '92 since I had the reloading stuff. Put some better sights on it, started fooling around with .45 Colt at the upper ends of the scale. Read all the articles. Lots of fun to shoot a few rounds, steel butt plate limited the fun without the sissy pad. I got it to shoot 6" groups at 100 yards with my old eyes. Realized that I had five deer/elk guns with scopes running 2.5-3 times as fast. Have not taken it out to shoot a deer yet, but might be useful in brush. No doubt it will kill anything in North America.
Last year I got into .45 Colt revolvers, Ruger and S&W. Heavy loads aren't much fun at the range. I have some good heavy loads for carry in the woods.
Just got through loading up 400 of my current favorite range loads, 6.0 gr Red Dot under 200 gr lswc. Very mild recoil, very accurate out to 50 yards. Not enough to purposefully take deer hunting, but I believe I could take a deer if I really needed to.
I haven't needed to go .44 mag, and already load enough different calibers. If I needed a flatter shooting hand gun round, the .44 mag has that advantage.
Pleasant discussions are more fun.
A couple years went by, bought the 20" Puma '92 since I had the reloading stuff. Put some better sights on it, started fooling around with .45 Colt at the upper ends of the scale. Read all the articles. Lots of fun to shoot a few rounds, steel butt plate limited the fun without the sissy pad. I got it to shoot 6" groups at 100 yards with my old eyes. Realized that I had five deer/elk guns with scopes running 2.5-3 times as fast. Have not taken it out to shoot a deer yet, but might be useful in brush. No doubt it will kill anything in North America.
Last year I got into .45 Colt revolvers, Ruger and S&W. Heavy loads aren't much fun at the range. I have some good heavy loads for carry in the woods.
Just got through loading up 400 of my current favorite range loads, 6.0 gr Red Dot under 200 gr lswc. Very mild recoil, very accurate out to 50 yards. Not enough to purposefully take deer hunting, but I believe I could take a deer if I really needed to.
I haven't needed to go .44 mag, and already load enough different calibers. If I needed a flatter shooting hand gun round, the .44 mag has that advantage.
Pleasant discussions are more fun.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
My answer is in response to the popular notion, propagated by Linebaugh 30yrs ago, that the .45Colt offers "more performance at less pressure". Like this:
When in reality, they are very, very similar. A difference of 100fps is really insignificant. The difference in diameter is made up in the difference in sectional density. Six of one, half a dozen of the other. IMHO, the more important difference is the tendency for the .45Colt to have oversized chambers and under or oversized chamber mouths. While the .44's are nearly always accurate out of the box. Where the .45 really shines is in much stronger gun like the big Redhawk and custom five-shot single actions but really, even then, all you're gaining is velocity. Tighter chambers and proper dimensions yield better accuracy and a tad more velocity but what does that really gain us in the field? A lot of recoil for one thing. So if you're going to the expense of a custom five-shot gun, which will cost at least $2500, why not go bigger? Bigger and heavier bullets are far more effective than more velocity. In this context anyway.
Less pressure, so what? What does 8000psi less pressure gain us? Nothing. For a given bullet weight at a given velocity, recoil will be the same whether it's a .44 or a .45. Less pressure 'may' yield a slight gain in service life but I have yet to see any testing done in that regard. It is insignificant, a marketing phrase.
So no, I don't believe for one second that the .45Colt is the "obvious" choice for the handloader. Which might be why I own 7 .44Mag's plus 3 .44Spl's and 2 .44Colt's but only three .45Colt's. I love the .45Colt and enjoy those that I own, I just don't drink the KoolAid.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Okay.
Ballistically, the .45 Colt shot rings around both the .44-40 and the .44 Special. From a 7 1/2" barrel, the old colt with balloon head cases would get about 1,000 fps, while the .44-40 and .44 Special maxed out much lower with a silighly lighter bullet.
Elmer Kieth, who blew up a few SAA Colts, knew the SAA Colt's weak spot -- the cylinder locking notch, which is dead center of the chamber, and has very thin metal there. When he had his famous Number 5 made up, he specified .44 Special, so as to get a bit more metal there. He then proceeded to develop some very high pressure loads for it.
In a suitably strong handgun -- like a Ruger Blackhawk, the .45 Colt can be safely loaded to shade the .44 Mag.
mr.trooper
Member
Splitting hairs by arguing over the .025" difference in bullet diameter is SILLY. Something as trivial as a slight variance in the lead alloy, or a minor difference in distance to the target could EASILY make up that difference or more.
Fact of the matter is that .44mag is far more versatile in today's market - unless you plan to restrict yourself to Ruger guns only and reload all your shells.
You can buy a box of Blazer .44 mag soft points at Walmart and shoot them out of any .44mag gun - this will get you 750 foot-pounds (light load) at the muzzle. Even cheap 'plinker' .44 mag ammo is plenty of power for deer at distance, black bear, or a tweaked up rapscallion. Heavier loads will do anything that needs doing, and still be safe to shoot in any .44 mag gun.
Fact of the matter is that .44mag is far more versatile in today's market - unless you plan to restrict yourself to Ruger guns only and reload all your shells.
You can buy a box of Blazer .44 mag soft points at Walmart and shoot them out of any .44mag gun - this will get you 750 foot-pounds (light load) at the muzzle. Even cheap 'plinker' .44 mag ammo is plenty of power for deer at distance, black bear, or a tweaked up rapscallion. Heavier loads will do anything that needs doing, and still be safe to shoot in any .44 mag gun.
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ljnowell
Member
What exactly is your point? If there is that big of a gap(meaning headspace is off) it would matter what kind of brass or caliber, it would go boom. How does this support the argument that 45 colt cases are weak? You are talking in circles and plainly know not what you are talking about.
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