Curious about folks pros/cons on the 41 vs 44 Sp or even 45 LC.

[Varminterror]

y the time metallic cartridge revolvers came on the scene, and there was no frontier.

@labnoti’s history of California neglects a great deal of American history. Recall, settlers didn’t wash across the country like a burning wick - what we call “fly over states” today were “Ride through states” in the 1800’s. We washed westward until the demarcation line of Minnesota, Iowa, Missouri, Arkansas, and Louisiana, plus Texas, then leapt across the country to California. Oklahoma wouldn’t follow, for example, as a US state until 57 years after California. North and South Dakota 39yrs later. California was settled much much earlier than most of the central US. Many of the legendary characters of history post date any of his discussion. California was settled and relatively civilized, reading dime novels about the frontier and cowboy heroes of the West - maybe better stated as the “Old West.” History books typically close the “American Frontier” around 1910-1915.

There was a gaping hole of unsettled territory in the US despite the transcontinental railroad. Relatively speaking, we planted a flag in California very early in American history. Recall, we were only 40 United States in 1890. Wild Bill wasn’t murdered until 1876. The same year Wyatt Earp arrived in Dodge City, and wouldn’t find his way to Arizona to commit the massacre at the OK corral in 1881. Billy the Kid also happened to be killed in 1881; Jesse James the next year. The Dalton Gang was running around Kansas, Oklahoma, and Missouri in the 1890’s. Texas Cattle were still being driven up the Chisholm Trail across ”Indian Territory” (now Oklahoma) into Kansas into the late 1880’s or early 1890’s.

For another comparative reference, movies were being made in California at the end of the Old West Cowboy era.

While it wasn’t the frontier of the early fur trade era, there wasn’t really much civilization happening in about a third of the US land mass long after California was developed.

The American West did butt directly up against it’s pop culture legacy - with folks like Buffalo Bill and Calamity Jane literally becoming legends in their own time - taking part in the taming of the West in their early life, AND publicizing and romanticizing that history (or rather, those legends) through Wild West Shows in later years.

While much about the American West era is largely - even majoritively - exaggerated and romanticized, Winchester wasn’t wholly lying to dub the 1873 as, “the gun that won the west,” albeit not in .45 Colt.

 

[ATLDave]

There was a gaping hole of unsettled territory in the US despite the transcontinental railroad. Relatively speaking, we planted a flag in California very early in American history. Recall, we were only 40 United States in 1890. Wild Bill wasn’t murdered until 1876. The same year Wyatt Earp arrived in Dodge City, and wouldn’t find his way to Arizona to commit the massacre at the OK corral in 1881. Billy the Kid also happened to be killed in 1881; Jesse James the next year. The Dalton Gang was running around Kansas, Oklahoma, and Missouri in the 1890’s. Texas Cattle were still being driven up the Chisholm Trail across ”Indian Territory” (now Oklahoma) into Kansas into the late 1880’s or early 1890’s.

Hell, one of my wife's now-deceased relations did a stint in Alcatraz after being the last man to rob a bank (and get away with it for a period of time) on horseback in western Missouri - in the 1930's.

 

[.308 Norma]

Yep, and just to keep this gun related, my granddad's chosen sidearm was a Colt 38ACP (introduced by Colt in 1900) as he was rounding up, green breaking, and selling mustang ponies to the Army in the early 1900s. Granddad and his dad (my great-granddad) sold green-broke mustangs to the Army for a living. They'd round them up out on what is now called Idaho's "Arco" desert, green break them, and herd them to the Army outpost at the railhead near Declo, Idaho. They had to cross the Snake River near American Falls, because it's usually shallow there; there were no bridges, and few ferries back then.
At any rate, Idaho was pretty darned "frontier-like" in those days. And like I said, granddad carried a Colt 38ACP - a gun that didn't even exist until 1900.
I sure wish I had granddad's 38ACP. Sadly, I think I was about 7 when dad had to sell it. Times were pretty tough for mom and dad when I was young. On the other hand, it made me appreciated how relatively easy my wife and I have had things.

 

[labnoti]

I'm going to argue, because this is the internet. Just because there are still people living primitive lifestyles in Appalachia doesn't make it a frontier. Nevertheless, my argument isn't about semantics or what the western frontier was. 1873 was a modern age. The civil war was over, and arms and munitions had been thoroughly modernized. Sure, there were places without Internet access, and there still are today. But to say the .45 Colt was one of the cartridges primarily used on the Western Frontier is simply wrong. It wasn't Winchester either, no matter what their salesmen say.

Instead, I would argue that the 1873 Colt SAA is a thoroughly modern cartridge revolver, and a design that was essentially "current" up until WW2. After that, it reappeared to meet demand driven primarily by nostalgia and continued in popularity until it was essentially made obsolete beginning in the 1970's by Ruger's improved action with the transfer-bar feature that is the basis for current single-actions like the Blackhawk, Vaquero, Freedom Arms, BFR etc. Of course, it continues in production primarily as replicas.

The guns that "won the west" were flintlock smoothbores through the fur trade era, and then percussion shotguns and rifles through the end of the Mexican-American war, the Gold Rush and Comstock/Civil War era. By 1873, there wasn't anything left to "win" other than maybe Hawaii. Even Alaska had already been purchased. Hawaii wasn't taken until a coup d'état in 1893.

 

[Varminterror]

Your timeline doesn’t really acknowledge a few decades of Indian War. You’re saying Custer was killed in civilized territory? Would you recall the year of Wounded Knee?

 

[35 Whelen]

I've been a big proponent of .45 Colt since I bought a conversion cylinder for a my first Pietta NMA. I don't doubt the capability of the .44 Special, but I fail to see how it is a superior choice for one to spend their money on over a .45 Colt. If you have a .44 Magnum and you want a smaller carry piece, okay that's logical. If you've found one that's an absolute bargain way lower than any .45 Colt, that's logical, but the .45 Colt is a more versatile cartridge.

.45 Colt is more historical too, that is the cartridge (along with .44-40) that was primarily used in the Western Frontier. .45 Colt in the Single Action Army was the sidearm of the military for decades in the late 19th Century and, yes, I know the .45 Schofield was the ammo used, but the guns were chambered for .45 Colt. The .44 Special... never used in the US military and I don't even know of any Police who ever used it, I know there were departments that used .32 S&W Long, .38, .357, and .45 Colt in the Colt New Service, but to my knowledge .44 Special never saw use.

When it comes to the ballistics, .45 Colt and .44 Special are pretty much identical, but only if we're comparing standard SAAMI pressures. .45 Colt can go way above SAAMI pressures in certain guns, I have yet to find a .44 Special ONLY that can do that without blowing up. .45 Colt is more popular, there is more factory ammo available and for less than .44 Special. .45 Colt can shoot .45 ACP if you have cylinder cut for moon clips. All the .410 handguns are able to shoot .45 Colt.

IMO, the .45 Colt is a better choice than .44 Special. If all the .44 Special has going for it is the Charter Arms Bulldog, cool, but that's available in .45 Colt now. Maybe a little bit bigger in the cylinder length and diameter, but not by much. Is .44 more accurate? Maybe, but I think that has to do with powder space and air gap and that can be remedied by using shorter brass like .45 Schofield to minimize the gap in the case and make groups nearly identical.

As for .41 Mag, I think that cartridge has had no reason to exist since it was created. You gain nothing in cylinder capacity, the guns are for all intents and purposes just as large as a .44 Magnum, and the ammunition and reloading components are not common.

Why exactly are you a proponent of the .45 Colt? It appears to be a combination of nostalgia and paper ballistics.

I own revolvers chambered in both cartridges and I really like them both. Every single .44 Special I've owned, S&W 24's, Flat Top Blackhawk, Uberti's, and one old S&W hand ejector (I should have NEVER sold) have been amazingly accurate with just about anything loaded in them. I've had hell finding a .45 Colt that was as accurate as the .44's, probably just a coincidence, but that's my experience. I've owned an S&W, a Ruger's and various Uberti's, but finally found a Uberti Frisco in .45 Colt that's a real dream shooter. I used to carry one of my .44 Specials around here but for the last few months it's been the Frisco, I suppose because it's something new to me.

Actually plenty of .44 Special "only" revolvers CAN be loaded to exceed SAAMI pressures. Elmer Keith was loading 1st Generation Colt .44 Specials to 22-25,000 psi long ago, and 2nd and 3rd Generation Colt's are certainly capable of digesting loads in that range as are the aforementioned Flat Top Blackhawks, Freedom Arms Revolvers, et al. I personally have loaded my Blackhawk .44 Special with 17.0 grs. of 2400 under a cast 260 gr. SWC and attained 1218 fps. It bears mentioning the some revolvers chambered in 45 Colt (Uberti's and Blackhawk Convertibles built on the .357-size frame) are available with optional 45 ACP cylinders. Since SAAMI pressure for the 45 ACP +P is 23,000 psi, the same size cylinders chambered in .44 Special will have much thicker chamber walls and therefore be able to withstand more pressure, it would seem.

As far as the ballistics go, I believe it's mostly splitting hairs. I've killed a little game with both calibers and well, they're all dead. One thing I have found disappointing about the 45 Colt is it's tendency to change points of impact as velocities and bullet weights change. My current favorite 45 Colt load for hunting is a 288 gr. cast SWC running 950-1000 fps, depending on the load. The sights on my Frisco have been regulated so the this load shoots around 2" high at 50 yds. I can drop back to a 250 gr. cast RNFP running about 850 fps and it shoots about 6" low at 50 yds. I loaded some freebie 200 gr. cast bullets up to 850 fps and they shoot almost 12" low at 50 yds. My .44 Special's though, don't do this. My hunting load is a 258-260 gr. cast SWC running 950-1000 fps. Two of my .44 Specials shoot this load dead-on to a couple of inches high at 50 yds. My go-to practice load is a 246 gr. RN loaded to 775-800 fps. At 50 yds. it shoots maybe a couple of inches lower than my hunting load, plenty close for practicing.

I think people like to argue the minutia of ballistics difference, but never actually need all that power. I figure either cartridge loaded with a cast SWC or WFN bullet whose sectional density is around .190, running 950 +/-, is going to do all that most of us need it to do.

35W

 

[Walkalong]

I do not hot rod the 45 Colt,

I did years ago, but got away from it and use the .41 & .44 Mag for when I want some thump. I too enjoy the .45 Colt at factory pressures/velocities.

 

[TTv2]

Why exactly are you a proponent of the .45 Colt? It appears to be a combination of nostalgia and paper ballistics.

I own revolvers chambered in both cartridges and I really like them both. Every single .44 Special I've owned, S&W 24's, Flat Top Blackhawk, Uberti's, and one old S&W hand ejector (I should have NEVER sold) have been amazingly accurate with just about anything loaded in them. I've had hell finding a .45 Colt that was as accurate as the .44's, probably just a coincidence, but that's my experience. I've owned an S&W, a Ruger's and various Uberti's, but finally found a Uberti Frisco in .45 Colt that's a real dream shooter. I used to carry one of my .44 Specials around here but for the last few months it's been the Frisco, I suppose because it's something new to me.

Actually plenty of .44 Special "only" revolvers CAN be loaded to exceed SAAMI pressures. Elmer Keith was loading 1st Generation Colt .44 Specials to 22-25,000 psi long ago, and 2nd and 3rd Generation Colt's are certainly capable of digesting loads in that range as are the aforementioned Flat Top Blackhawks, Freedom Arms Revolvers, et al. I personally have loaded my Blackhawk .44 Special with 17.0 grs. of 2400 under a cast 260 gr. SWC and attained 1218 fps. It bears mentioning the some revolvers chambered in 45 Colt (Uberti's and Blackhawk Convertibles built on the .357-size frame) are available with optional 45 ACP cylinders. Since SAAMI pressure for the 45 ACP +P is 23,000 psi, the same size cylinders chambered in .44 Special will have much thicker chamber walls and therefore be able to withstand more pressure, it would seem.

As far as the ballistics go, I believe it's mostly splitting hairs. I've killed a little game with both calibers and well, they're all dead. One thing I have found disappointing about the 45 Colt is it's tendency to change points of impact as velocities and bullet weights change. My current favorite 45 Colt load for hunting is a 288 gr. cast SWC running 950-1000 fps, depending on the load. The sights on my Frisco have been regulated so the this load shoots around 2" high at 50 yds. I can drop back to a 250 gr. cast RNFP running about 850 fps and it shoots about 6" low at 50 yds. I loaded some freebie 200 gr. cast bullets up to 850 fps and they shoot almost 12" low at 50 yds. My .44 Special's though, don't do this. My hunting load is a 258-260 gr. cast SWC running 950-1000 fps. Two of my .44 Specials shoot this load dead-on to a couple of inches high at 50 yds. My go-to practice load is a 246 gr. RN loaded to 775-800 fps. At 50 yds. it shoots maybe a couple of inches lower than my hunting load, plenty close for practicing.

I think people like to argue the minutia of ballistics difference, but never actually need all that power. I figure either cartridge loaded with a cast SWC or WFN bullet whose sectional density is around .190, running 950 +/-, is going to do all that most of us need it to do.

35W

I agree about either cartridge loaded to 950-1000 fps with the right bullets are going to do the same thing, I just think the .45 Colt is better for the sake of factory ammo selection and availability and in the Ruger's, being able to go well above SAAMI.

If this is a discussion on Colt SAA's and clones, no the .44 Special is better in that regard. If it's about Rugers and Freedom Arms and BFR's, .45 Colt all the way.

I'm a proponent of .45 Colt because I reload, I shot percussion revolvers, and I like being able to shoot factory .45 ACP because it's cheaper than .45 Colt and more available, which I why I bought a .45 Colt/ACP Redhawk. The balls that I use in percussion revolvers I can also load one or two into a .45 Colt case and they make for a heck of a close range load that hits harder than a Taurus Judge and is more accurate. I can also use .45 Colt bullets in .45 ACP and vice versa. I can't do that with the .44's at all, not unless someone wants to make a .44 ACP in the future.

As for accuracy, I said this but will say it again, I think the issue is the .45 Colt is such a large case the powder space inside causes inconsistent burn rates, but in a shorter case like the Schofield it will burn better and accuracy will increase. I've seen several examples of this demonstrated online and it worked both for .45 Colt/Schofield and .44 Special/Russian. Apples to apples, I think the results would be the same.

I'm not dismissing the .44's capabilities, but I don't think it's the end all be all of non-magnum big bore revolvers.

 

[RealGun]

I'm going to argue, because this is the internet. Just because there are still people living primitive lifestyles in Appalachia doesn't make it a frontier. Nevertheless, my argument isn't about semantics or what the western frontier was. 1873 was a modern age. The civil war was over, and arms and munitions had been thoroughly modernized. Sure, there were places without Internet access, and there still are today. But to say the .45 Colt was one of the cartridges primarily used on the Western Frontier is simply wrong. It wasn't Winchester either, no matter what their salesmen say.

Instead, I would argue that the 1873 Colt SAA is a thoroughly modern cartridge revolver, and a design that was essentially "current" up until WW2. After that, it reappeared to meet demand driven primarily by nostalgia and continued in popularity until it was essentially made obsolete beginning in the 1970's by Ruger's improved action with the transfer-bar feature that is the basis for current single-actions like the Blackhawk, Vaquero, Freedom Arms, BFR etc. Of course, it continues in production primarily as replicas.

The guns that "won the west" were flintlock smoothbores through the fur trade era, and then percussion shotguns and rifles through the end of the Mexican-American war, the Gold Rush and Comstock/Civil War era. By 1873, there wasn't anything left to "win" other than maybe Hawaii. Even Alaska had already been purchased. Hawaii wasn't taken until a coup d'état in 1893.

I think you miss that the "frontier" can be viewed as territory lacking in law and order.

 

[MaxP]

Why exactly are you a proponent of the .45 Colt? It appears to be a combination of nostalgia and paper ballistics.

I own revolvers chambered in both cartridges and I really like them both. Every single .44 Special I've owned, S&W 24's, Flat Top Blackhawk, Uberti's, and one old S&W hand ejector (I should have NEVER sold) have been amazingly accurate with just about anything loaded in them. I've had hell finding a .45 Colt that was as accurate as the .44's, probably just a coincidence, but that's my experience. I've owned an S&W, a Ruger's and various Uberti's, but finally found a Uberti Frisco in .45 Colt that's a real dream shooter. I used to carry one of my .44 Specials around here but for the last few months it's been the Frisco, I suppose because it's something new to me.

Actually plenty of .44 Special "only" revolvers CAN be loaded to exceed SAAMI pressures. Elmer Keith was loading 1st Generation Colt .44 Specials to 22-25,000 psi long ago, and 2nd and 3rd Generation Colt's are certainly capable of digesting loads in that range as are the aforementioned Flat Top Blackhawks, Freedom Arms Revolvers, et al. I personally have loaded my Blackhawk .44 Special with 17.0 grs. of 2400 under a cast 260 gr. SWC and attained 1218 fps. It bears mentioning the some revolvers chambered in 45 Colt (Uberti's and Blackhawk Convertibles built on the .357-size frame) are available with optional 45 ACP cylinders. Since SAAMI pressure for the 45 ACP +P is 23,000 psi, the same size cylinders chambered in .44 Special will have much thicker chamber walls and therefore be able to withstand more pressure, it would seem.

As far as the ballistics go, I believe it's mostly splitting hairs. I've killed a little game with both calibers and well, they're all dead. One thing I have found disappointing about the 45 Colt is it's tendency to change points of impact as velocities and bullet weights change. My current favorite 45 Colt load for hunting is a 288 gr. cast SWC running 950-1000 fps, depending on the load. The sights on my Frisco have been regulated so the this load shoots around 2" high at 50 yds. I can drop back to a 250 gr. cast RNFP running about 850 fps and it shoots about 6" low at 50 yds. I loaded some freebie 200 gr. cast bullets up to 850 fps and they shoot almost 12" low at 50 yds. My .44 Special's though, don't do this. My hunting load is a 258-260 gr. cast SWC running 950-1000 fps. Two of my .44 Specials shoot this load dead-on to a couple of inches high at 50 yds. My go-to practice load is a 246 gr. RN loaded to 775-800 fps. At 50 yds. it shoots maybe a couple of inches lower than my hunting load, plenty close for practicing.

I think people like to argue the minutia of ballistics difference, but never actually need all that power. I figure either cartridge loaded with a cast SWC or WFN bullet whose sectional density is around .190, running 950 +/-, is going to do all that most of us need it to do.

35W

It's neither nostalgia nor paper ballistics that draws me to the .45 Colt even though I prefer larger calibers for really big game, but my approach is nearly always from the perspective of handgun hunting. I conducted an experiment a couple of years ago where I had some loads pressure tested in .45 Colt. I held the pressure to 36,000 psi -- the same ceiling for the .44 Magnum -- and got consistent velocities over 1,400 fps with a 335 grain bullet from a loose .454 SRH (7 1/2-inch barrel). The .45 Colt is capable of so much more than the milquetoast cowboy action-level loads. It gives me the warm and fuzzies.

 

[Charlie98]

I did years ago, but got away from it and use the .41 & .44 Mag for when I want some thump. I too enjoy the .45 Colt at factory pressures/velocities.

I've found, the older I get the more I move to more standard level cartridges and loads. Back when I was a wee lad, I wanted Magnum everything... big, long barrels, heavy bullets, big recoil... today not so much. I used to hot rod my .45 Colt Vaquero some, but have returned to the generic 900'ish fps cast bullet loads, same with the .44SPC. Granted, I just shoot paper and long-distance steel, if I was to hunt it would be a different story... and probably a different cartridge altogether.

 

[35 Whelen]

It's neither nostalgia nor paper ballistics that draws me to the .45 Colt even though I prefer larger calibers for really big game, but my approach is nearly always from the perspective of handgun hunting. I conducted an experiment a couple of years ago where I had some loads pressure tested in .45 Colt. I held the pressure to 36,000 psi -- the same ceiling for the .44 Magnum -- and got consistent velocities over 1,400 fps with a 335 grain bullet from a loose .454 SRH (7 1/2-inch barrel). The .45 Colt is capable of so much more than the milquetoast cowboy action-level loads. It gives me the warm and fuzzies.

It's neither nostalgia nor paper ballistics that draws me to the .45 Colt even though I prefer larger calibers for really big game, but my approach is nearly always from the perspective of handgun hunting. I conducted an experiment a couple of years ago where I had some loads pressure tested in .45 Colt. I held the pressure to 36,000 psi -- the same ceiling for the .44 Magnum -- and got consistent velocities over 1,400 fps with a 335 grain bullet from a loose .454 SRH (7 1/2-inch barrel). The .45 Colt is capable of so much more than the milquetoast cowboy action-level loads. It gives me the warm and fuzzies.

Any cartridge loaded to "higher" pressures are capable of more than their standard loadings. I think a perfect example of this is the 45-70. When I was a kid, I'd load cast and load 500 gr. bullets into my Dad's Ruger #1 and run them just a shade under 1800 fps, about a 50% increase in velocity from the original load. No voodoo however, just an increase in pressures.

Another good example of this is the comparison of the .44 Special to the .44 Magnum. I think few people realize that these two cartridges have all but identical o.a.l.'s as per SAAMI (1.615" and 1.610" respectively). This means when loaded to SAAMI specifications for length, the two cartridges have all but identical internal case capacities, which in turn bears out the fact that the Magnum gets its velocity gains from higher pressures rather than increased case capacity, as most of us probably assume. Again, no voodoo or magic, just higher pressures. Of course the Magnum loads that exceed the 1.610" o.a.l. benefit from both greater case capacity and higher pressures.

I once owned a New Vaquero in 45 Colt and loaded it up close to 1100 fps with 265 and 290 gr. bullets. But after killing game 200 lbs. and with the same bullets at slightly more sedate velocities, I just didn't see the need to waste powder when the bullet was just going to wind bouncing across the pasture after making full penetration on the game. (I guess John Linebaugh was right)

The only game I've hunted that is larger than deer and swine is elk, and they come WAY too hard for me to yet consider hunting them with a revolver.

35W

 

[tbob38]

[QUOTE=" By 1873, there wasn't anything left to "win" other than maybe Hawaii. Even Alaska had already been purchased. Hawaii wasn't taken until a coup d'état in 1893.[/QUOTE]

George Custer would probably disagree.

 

[MaxP]

Any cartridge loaded to "higher" pressures are capable of more than their standard loadings. I think a perfect example of this is the 45-70. When I was a kid, I'd load cast and load 500 gr. bullets into my Dad's Ruger #1 and run them just a shade under 1800 fps, about a 50% increase in velocity from the original load. No voodoo however, just an increase in pressures.

Another good example of this is the comparison of the .44 Special to the .44 Magnum. I think few people realize that these two cartridges have all but identical o.a.l.'s as per SAAMI (1.615" and 1.610" respectively). This means when loaded to SAAMI specifications for length, the two cartridges have all but identical internal case capacities, which in turn bears out the fact that the Magnum gets its velocity gains from higher pressures rather than increased case capacity, as most of us probably assume. Again, no voodoo or magic, just higher pressures. Of course the Magnum loads that exceed the 1.610" o.a.l. benefit from both greater case capacity and higher pressures.

I once owned a New Vaquero in 45 Colt and loaded it up close to 1100 fps with 265 and 290 gr. bullets. But after killing game 200 lbs. and with the same bullets at slightly more sedate velocities, I just didn't see the need to waste powder when the bullet was just going to wind bouncing across the pasture after making full penetration on the game. (I guess John Linebaugh was right)

The only game I've hunted that is larger than deer and swine is elk, and they come WAY too hard for me to yet consider hunting them with a revolver.

35W

My point was that certain cartridges lend themselves to hot rodding and there are revolvers (like Rugers) built in .45 Colt that allow for higher pressures. It's a great round at subdued velocities but an even greater round when you squeeze the throttle a bit more.

I killed this water buffalo with a .45 Colt and I can assure you it wasn't with cowboy action loads!

 

[35 Whelen]

The guns that "won the west" were flintlock smoothbores through the fur trade era, and then percussion shotguns and rifles through the end of the Mexican-American war, the Gold Rush and Comstock/Civil War era. By 1873, there wasn't anything left to "win" other than maybe Hawaii. Even Alaska had already been purchased. Hawaii wasn't taken until a coup d'état in 1893.

Not a chance, my friend. Here in Texas the tables only began to turn when our Rangers were armed Colt Paterson's somewhere around 1839, then later Colt Walkers. Once repeating rifles such as the Henry and the 1866 Winchester became available only then did meaningful change occur. Even at that, the Comanches had free reign of Texas up until the early 1870's. Major battles between the whites and Comanche's, Kiowa's and Apache's occurred as late as 1874 at the Secomd Battle of Adobe Walls. Incidentally, archaeological excavation showed that at least one 45 Colt revolver was used by the buffalo hunters holed up in Hanrahan's Saloon. The last conflict in Texas between Indian's and whites wasn't until 1877. Even then, it would be another 9 years before Geronimo would finally surrender in New Mexico. Then there was all the fracas that began to occur on the border....

35W

 

[TTv2]

It's neither nostalgia nor paper ballistics that draws me to the .45 Colt even though I prefer larger calibers for really big game, but my approach is nearly always from the perspective of handgun hunting. I conducted an experiment a couple of years ago where I had some loads pressure tested in .45 Colt. I held the pressure to 36,000 psi -- the same ceiling for the .44 Magnum -- and got consistent velocities over 1,400 fps with a 335 grain bullet from a loose .454 SRH (7 1/2-inch barrel). The .45 Colt is capable of so much more than the milquetoast cowboy action-level loads. It gives me the warm and fuzzies.

Also when it comes to high pressure loadings, there's a lot more documentation of doing it with .45 Colt in certain .45 Colt guns, but for .44 Special I don't know of anything that's out there advocating it's safe to shoot them with PSI's in excess of 20k, nor in what guns. Can't do it in a Charter Arms Bulldog, that's for damn sure. So if you can't do it in a Bulldog, you have to shoot it in a Colt or a S&W and those aren't small guns so the size argument about .44 Special guns being smaller than .45 Colt is irrelevant.

 

[35 Whelen]

Also when it comes to high pressure loadings, there's a lot more documentation of doing it with .45 Colt in certain .45 Colt guns, but for .44 Special I don't know of anything that's out there advocating it's safe to shoot them with PSI's in excess of 20k, nor in what guns. Can't do it in a Charter Arms Bulldog, that's for damn sure. So if you can't do it in a Bulldog, you have to shoot it in a Colt or a S&W and those aren't small guns so the size argument about .44 Special guns being smaller than .45 Colt is irrelevant.

Handloading the .44 Special- Handloader #236 (click on the "H" for the link) FYI, Brian Pearce, the author, states that CA Bulldog loads should be kept to a 22,000 psi limit. I own a Bulldog and cannot fathom shooting a load that heavy in it regardless of the revolvers capabilitie of withstanding such loads.

You might want to read Elmer Keith's "Sixguns" as therein he provides pressure data from his tested .44 Special loads, and that was over 60 years ago, long before "Ruger Only" 45 Colt loads were even dreamed of. The load he developed for his .44 Special's was 17.5 grs. of 2400 under a 250 gr. cast SWC. This load was tested at around 25,000 psi achieved a muzzle velocity of 1200 fps and was used in his custom .44 Specials, which were based on the Colt Single Action which is most assuredly a smaller revolver than a Blackhawk .44 Magnum. (Google "Elmer Keith #5") Interestingly, the ballistics of that load are basically identical to "standard" .44 Magnum loads offered by the Big 3 U.S. ammunition maufacturers today.

So, for you to load a 250 gr. cast bullet to 1200 fps in a 45 Colt,, what revolver would you need to use? I'm guessing one of the large framed Blackhawks.

It's OK for you to prefer the 45 Colt over the .44 Special and you don't have to justify your choice. I happen to enjoy both calibers. Heck I loaded and fired 50 rounds out of a 45 Colt yesterday evening and will likely do it again this evening. Next week it may be one of my .44 Specials or I may even drag out one of the .357's. Why limit ones self to a single cartridge ?

35W

 

[Varminterror]

For me, the application is always the differentiation between these cartridges. There are midframe 44spcl and 45colts, often with shorter barrels. Obviously, these won’t tolerate as much pressure as large frame 44mag and 45colts, and won’t be as useful in hunting fields as a longer barrel.

I love the 44spcl GP100 as a belt gun, but I can’t say I’d recommend it as someone’s ONLY hunting revolver. Whereas a 45colt 7.5” Blackhawk or Redhawk makes more sense. Conversely, the big wheel guns are a bit much for a camper’s belt gun. I carried a 7.5” 44mag SBH for over a decade working on the ranch, I certainly never forgot it was there. A 4.2” SP101 is a much lighter and more compact option, despite lacking performance for hunting.

 

[farm23]

I have 44 spl, 44mag, 45 lc, and 454's. I have only used a revolver for hunting for some 40 years and all of them have done the job. Now days I limit my big game hunting to deer and use a 44 spl or 45 because they are easier to carry. I am also more patient and with open sights wait till I can get a shot inside 50 yards. If you handload there is not any real difference between a 44 spl and 45 until you get to the 44 mag range and then the next step up is the 454 but that was not the OP question. I have a GP100 1/2 lug coming just because I like the looks, not because of a need. You can not go wrong with any of the options.

 

[CraigC]

Also when it comes to high pressure loadings, there's a lot more documentation of doing it with .45 Colt in certain .45 Colt guns, but for .44 Special I don't know of anything that's out there advocating it's safe to shoot them with PSI's in excess of 20k, nor in what guns. Can't do it in a Charter Arms Bulldog, that's for damn sure. So if you can't do it in a Bulldog, you have to shoot it in a Colt or a S&W and those aren't small guns so the size argument about .44 Special guns being smaller than .45 Colt is irrelevant.

Unless you've been living under a rock, there is plenty of info on what guns are appropriate for what loads. No, it's not quite as accepted or documented as "Ruger only" .45Colt loads but it is there. Elmer Keith wrote about it 80yrs ago and since then, so have Skeeter Skelton, John Taffin, Brian Pearce, Ross Seyfried and others. Basically any post-war Colt SAA or New Frontier, USFA replica, late model Uberti replica, any Ruger mid-frame, any post-war N-frame, etc.. In a Colt-sized sixgun, the .44Spl has a few advantages. There is a distinct strength advantage due to the thicker chamber walls. Keith figured this out long ago, before 2400 had even been developed. For whatever reason, the .44's also tend to be better shooters with less issues regarding chamber dimensions. The .45Colt is usually grossly oversized and my own New Frontier has typical .457" throats. Not conducive to good accuracy with .452" bullets. The .44's shoot well out of the box but the best .45's are built, not bought, unless it's an FA or USFA. If you're running 900-1000fps loads with standard weight cast bullets, either cartridge will do the job.

It's OK for you to prefer the 45 Colt over the .44 Special and you don't have to justify your choice. I happen to enjoy both calibers. Heck I loaded and fired 50 rounds out of a 45 Colt yesterday evening and will likely do it again this evening. Next week it may be one of my .44 Specials or I may even drag out one of the .357's. Why limit ones self to a single cartridge ?

Agreed. I love both cartridges and do not choose one over the other. Even though it may not come off that way because for some reason, I find myself very often at odds with die-hard .45 fans who do choose one over the other. I've got eight .45Colt's, two .454's and am thinking about yet another .45Colt. Hell, I have a Dillon 650 with electric casefeeder dedicated to the .45Colt and it's never been used to load anything else. I don't understand why some folks need to choose one and hate the other, like a silly Ford vs Chevy argument. I love them all.