.45 or 9mm?

[kir_kenix]

i dont buy into all those statements that the 9mm is as effective man stopper as the .45. the .45 is a bigger, heavier (albiet slower) round that just seems to leave a bigger hole in the things i shoot. now i mainly shoot fmj ammo so this isnt conclusive, but i fire both the .45 and 9mm routinely at 55 gal drums full of sticks/branches/junk/ect. .45's go all the way thru the barrel about 75% of the time. 9mm go thru the barrels less then 50% of the time. i know that this doesnt mean its a better man stopper, just that in fmj the .45 puts a small hole on one side of the barrel and a (usually) BIG hole on the other. the 9mm makes a small hole on one side and a (sometimes) small ragged hole on the other. i know there is alot more to man-stopping power than this, but its the best example i can come up with. i know if i were to put my life on it i would rather have 7+1 .45 than 15+1 9mm...but thats just me. not like you are going to need (hopefully anyway, save zombie attacks) that many shots anyway.

 

[03Shadowbob]

SilverState,
There are many reasons why there are a lot more 9mm "attempted murder" cases and I would bet that only 5% of those cases is because of bullet size. Many more attempted murders with a 9mm because it is a lot more popular round overall than a .45. That's why there are more attempted murder cases with 9's than 45's. At least from my experience when I was LEO down here in South Florida there were more murders and more attempted murders with 9s than 45s.

 

[junyo]

What do you suppose the difference is between a murder case and an attempt murder case?

Bad aim?

 

[SilverState]

You can lead a horse to water...

For those of you that really want to carry a 9mm, have at it; it does not affect me.

Here's what I carry (loaded with Double Tap Gold Dot .45acp):

 

[moxie]

To continue your logic train, you should find

a .22 rimfire semi-auto pistol like a Ruger 22/45. Comes with a 10 round magazine. You can shoot it rapid fire with little recoil problem. No problem hitting what you aim at.

 

[Thorn001]

My personal belief is that you should carry as much gun as you can control and conceal. 45ACP has a better track record than 9mm. With practice it is a very accurate round. But 45s are, in general, large handguns. 9mm is easier to conceal. Easier to be accurate with. and cheaper to practice with. Frankly I own both but carry a 45 far more often.

 

[condoor]

I see this quote often and I never understand it:

"A hot 9mm JHP will deliver just as much, if not more, stopping power than the .45. Myths die hard and when forced to shoot round nose bullets the .45 does have an edge. But once you move to high performance 9mm it's a different game entirely."

Why is it that when people compare 9mm ball to 45mm ball the 45 ball is the clear winner, but when they move to 'high performance 9mm' they are suddenly equal. Ever hear of 'high performance .45 ammo'? I have - and it still leaves a 20% bigger hole in the bad guy than 9 vs 45 ball ammo, not to mention the fact that it's weighs almost twice as much giving it more momentum to plow through barriers (jackets, bones, cartlidge, etc). The 9mm is good - the 45 is just better - ball or 'high performance hollowpoint'.

 

[Confederate]

...those of us who have to deal with murder and attempt murder cases for a living will tell you, you will find lots of muder cases involving a .45acp and you will find lots of attempt muder cases involving a 9mm, but you will rarely find .45acp attempt murder cases.

This really tells us nothing as you tell us nothing of the ammunition used.

It could be that users of .45s tend to be more careful about bullet placement or that most 9mm murderers use ball ammo. Many gangsters use .22LR and go for two shots to the head. The worst .45 ammo is usually better than the worst 9mm, but the question is whether the best .45 ammo is better than the best 9mm, and that really is open for debate. I'd rather have 15-16 rounds of 9mm Federal 115-gr JHPs in my gun than 8 shots of .45. Neither round would be anemic. A .357 125-gr JHP would blow either caliber out of the water for pure power.

 

[SilverState]

Let me make it simple for you. Guys shot with 9mm tend to live. Do what you want...:banghead:

 

[Snowdog]

What the heck is a 9mm? I've never heard of it.

 

[grimjaw]

This thread is like the movie "Groundhog Day."

.45 has a strong recoil which reduces accuracy in rapid fire compared to 9mm.

I haven't found that to be the case, especially with 1911-style pistols.

jm

 

[Jamie C.]

Let me make it simple for you. Guys shot with 9mm tend to live.

So? According to the statistics I've seen, more than 80% of all people shot with a handgun...any handgun.... live.

So where does that leave us?

Remember what Mark Twain said: "Figures lie and liars figure."

The other side of the coin is that most of the people that get all balled up in these "caliber wars" have never shot at a human being and probably never will. ( which is a good thing )
And most have never even seen the effects of various calibers on living tissue, other than on CSI or some other TV show.

As has been stated elsewhere, many times over, any caliber can work... or fail.

So carry what you like and shoot well, and practice as much as possible. In the end, these things are a more productive use of your time than worrying over whether or not there's something better that you could be using. Especially when "better" is an entirely subjective, unproven commodity.


J.C.

 

[SilverState]

You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned that most people who debate this topic have no real life experience about how the different calibers act in a human body.

I however do have that kind of experience.

 

[03Shadowbob]

As do I Silverstate...I truly believe that a .45 has much more potential dealiness in it. I don't know anyone who would say it doesn't. However your statements about .45=murder and 9mm= attempted murder are crazy.

 

[Confederate]

One doesn't need any practical day to day experience in discussing this intelligently; there's plenty of material out there and even the experts with practical experience disagree.

I've heard of failures with all types of handgun calibers, even .45s. The .45s will not generally expand (even JHPs) because they don't reach the necessary velocity. Even so, most are already at the size they want a 9mm to expand to, so it's not a problem. The thing is, when a 9mm JHP does expand, it tends to give a wider wound channel at a higher velocity. This translates into more stopping power. What one is really debating when they discuss the .45 v. 9mm is their faith in the latter's expansion.

A .357 magnum 125-gr JHP almost always is a devastating expander and it transfers one hell of a lot of power. In fact, it often will stop someone faster or be more fatal than a .44 magnum. Why? Because the .44 mag bullet will usually pass through a human body and expend most of its energy afterwards, which then turns into wasted energy. In most cases, .357 125-gr JHPs tend to stay within the human body, tranferring all of their energy into the target. So some might raise the question of whether you want eight rounds of .45 or six rounds of .357. At some point there has to be a happy medium.

If a 9mm doesn't expand, a .45 will usually have better stopping power. That's pretty much indisputable. But if it does expand, it usually will have greater stopping power. It's not unusual for 9mm to blossom to greater sizes than .45s and to dump their power into the human body; but it's also not uncommon for them to not to expand.

The Federal 115-gr JHP has shown itself to be a winner. Probably other 9mm as well. All things being equal (like capacity), I'll take the .45. Give me more ammo and I'll take the nine-mil.

 

[WickedXD]

 

[cookekdjr]

This thread is like the movie "Groundhog Day."

.45 has a strong recoil which reduces accuracy in rapid fire compared to 9mm.

I haven't found that to be the case, especially with 1911-style pistols.

jm

I've rarely shot .45, but in both platforms I've tried (SIG p220 and SA 1911) recoil was low and it was very easy to be accurate in rapid fire. Just as easy as my 9mm Glock 19.
I understand wanting cheap ammo. Its one of the reasons I bought the G19. And I understand wanting more power- generally speaking, I favor calibers that begin with "4". But a gun's caliber does not exist in a vacuum; its part of a platform. You have to consider reliability, accuracy, rate of fire, capacity, ergonomics, etc. So to me, 9mm vs. .45 is not really a good comparison without considering the platform. If you are carrying a 1911, I suggest .45 (the original design). I won't blame you for getting one in .38 super, since that's more like Browning's original concept for the gun (he was planning on a .38 caliber till the miliary said only .45's need apply). I also won't blame you for getting a 9mm or .40 if you are wanting more capacity in a different platform. But just asking the Q "9mm or .45?". My answer is Yes, no, maybe, both, neither, and it depends...
-David

 

[expvideo]

I used to train with a 45 because I plan to someday be issued a 40 or a 9. I carry a 9mm instead these days, so I train with it. As for training, the 45 prepaired me for the 9mm very well, because I was used to much more recoil. Now I place rounds accurately down range more rapidly than most of my friends.

As for effectiveness of the 9mm vs the 45, it depends on ammo and shot placement. Shooting FMJ out of a 9mm is asking for 0 rezults. With good hollowpoints, and good shot placement a 9mm is very effective and can be controlled better for rapid shot succession. A .45 is very effective as well, but with good shot placement, either should have you well covered.

 

[KellyTTE]

 

[Jack19]

If you think the .45 has "strong recoil," you need to practice more. And maybe try some .41, or .44Magnum, or 10mm rounds in its original loading.

That said, I have been carrying 9mm in my defense side arm for, well, decades; I see no need to change. It's simply a matter of preference.

 

[S&W620]

I'm with you Atilla.

Try the search feature.

You will find about 100 pages on "9mm vs. .45".

In those 100 pages will be somewhere between 8-10 original viewpoints.

This has taken beating a dead horse to a whole new level.

 

[Liberty4Ever]

The most important factor is shot placement, so shoot what you shoot best. You can go to an upscale range and rent some different guns to compare them, or you can go to a good 'ol boy range like the one where I shoot and trade guns with a complete stranger and discuss the relative merits of each.

If you are interested in stopping power, the FBI Handgun Wounding Factors & Effectiveness study is the definitive work. It's available online.

http://www.thegunzone.com/quantico-wounding.html

The short story is, first and foremost you need 12" of penetration in calibrated ballistic gelatin to allow for factors like an arm in front of the body cavity, etc. Overpenetration is largely a myth and should not be a serious concern in most situations. Only after achieving 12" of penetration should a bullet start trading penetration for expansion.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index.html

The best was the 10mm, and that's what the FBI adopted for a short while, but FBI agents with small hands had trouble gripping and therefore properly controlling the 10mm, and this was an even bigger problem because the same people also tended to be slight of frame and poorly equipped to handle the recoil. I wish they would have adopted a single stack 10mm as it would also be great for concealed carry. But they shortened and weakened the cartridge to form the .40 S&W (short & weak). The .40 is still a good round, just not as good as full house 10mm. But in many people's hands the .40 S&W was better than the 10mm because they could shoot more accurately with it, and shot placement is the most important factor. A bullet that misses the target is a liability.

 

[Jamie C.]

Try the search feature.

You will find about 100 pages on "9mm vs. .45".

Heh... a hundred pages?

Man, I've been reading this same ol' stuff for more than 30 years now...

There's one thing about the argument that I can't help but notice though: Both calibers are still around. Neither has pushed the other out of existence.

Now maybe it's just me, but it seems that if one were really significantly better than the other then there wouldn't be but that one left, after all these years.

Oh, and as to my comment earlier on statistics and such... I've had personal experience/knowledge of a little less than a dozen shootings... and at least in those few instances both the 9mm and .45 resulted in "one shot stops". Of the three shootings that I remember NOT resulting in a fatality, the calibers were .22lr, 30-30 Win., and 12ga. ( The 12ga. was at very close range... Under the chin. The woman survived. )

Also, our Firearms Training Officer successfully thwarted an attack, while off duty, using a North American Arms mini-revolver in .22 lr. Result was a one shot stop. The attacker didn't survive.

The only thing any of the above "proves" is that, at least around where I live, the claims of how much better one caliber is than another isn't much in evidence.

Or maybe it's just that us hillbillies are generally better shots than the average, and place the rounds on target better, and are therefore screwing up the averages, at least locally.....?


J.C.

 

[Jerry Morris]

If I had just kept my first 1911 and just put the money in a special account, instead of trading around, I'd have about ten grand, now! I should have kept the first one and sent it to Armand Swenson. I'd be a richer man, money-wise.

Sounds like "Iwannititus" to me. Believe me, excepting the fact you bought a compact, the 1911 is what you have and should keep. Were I you, I'd just get a full sized 1911 to match up to the compact.

You want cheaper ammo, start reloading. if the 9 mm is that attractive, get it and keep the 1911. Trust me, I have both. 2 Colt's GMs, 1 Kimber Ultra Carry and a Browning HP for the 9. Going to a 9 is not going to satisfy you. You will find they all have their drawbacks. The 1911 has fewer.

Your present gun has more options for improvement than many of the 9 mm's.

Jerry

 

[Jerry Morris]

After-thought. Use FMJ, or EFMJ in the compact 1911's. The flat noses are best. The 230 grain JHP may not not expand, but they will slap a might more the RN-FMJ. At any rate, a .45 FMJ is going to do better than a 9 mm FMJ.

Jerry