.45 Special loads

[cp1969]

Don't they do that for quick ejection purposes? Some ejectors aren't long enough to push a case completely out of the cylinder. When time is of the essence, one is willing to trade away accuracy.

Fact remains, bullet jump is not a good thing. It can be tolerated, but nothing good ballistically comes of it.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

A few years back I was handed a bag of fired 45 Colt blank brass. After considerable checking I decided the only difference from 45 Colt brass case heads (both Starline) was the primer hole. So I cleaned, expanded and cut down the brass. Case length was in the .85-.90 range. Worked up loads using data from 45 Schofield, 45 AR and 455 Eley, all have a similar base and case length.

I have no chrony. All loads were fired in a Cabela 2000 (Uberti clone). Used MBC bullets, 12 bhn. Fired at 15 yd, all went into a 2" bull on an indoor range.

200 gr RN
Bullseye: 3.0, 3.5 gr
Green Dot: 4.6, 5.1 gr
Unique: 5.5 gr

Having used all of my 200s, I switched to 250 gr RN.
800-X: 6.5 gr
AA#2: 5.2 gr

Your mileage WILL vary. These are all mild to moderate loads. The key to accuracy is bullets that fit the chamber throat and that are soft enough to expand to fill the throat.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Don't they do that for quick ejection purposes? Some ejectors aren't long enough to push a case completely out of the cylinder. When time is of the essence, one is willing to trade away accuracy.

Fact remains, bullet jump is not a good thing. It can be tolerated, but nothing good ballistically comes of it.

Bullet jump in handguns is not as critical as in rifles. In reality, the jury is still out how much the jump effects rifle accuracy too. If it were for sure how can the extremely good accuracy in Weatherby rifles be explained? Those rifles are known for their long lead yet the accuracy is there.

 

[ATLDave]

Don't they do that for quick ejection purposes? Some ejectors aren't long enough to push a case completely out of the cylinder. When time is of the essence, one is willing to trade away accuracy.

Right, that's why they do it. But they wouldn't do it if it had really serious negative impacts on accuracy. Trying to hit a mini-popper or a 6" or 8" steel plate at 25 yards - shots that do come up from time to time - is not going to be tolerant of a seriously inaccurate gun/ammo combo.

Fact remains, bullet jump is not a good thing.

Again, I am not at all sure this is a fact, particularly in handguns. This is conventional wisdom, but, as I said, lots of people have no difficulty getting what they deem to be good accuracy from shorter revo cartridges in cylinders chambered for something longer. I'm not a bullseye shooter, though, so I'm not going to be able to tell the difference between a 1.5" gun/ammo combo and a 2" gun ammo/combo at 25 yards.

 

[joneb]

Joneb, I will be using my .45 Colt S&W Mountain Gun.

And what's this about Unique being difficult to measure accurate loads with?

My powder throw does not meter Unique or other large flake powders consistently when compared to a powders like W231, when my charge weight is light I like to use a small aperture meter bar .30" large flake powders will tend to bridge the hole. So for large flake powders a .50" aperture works better but at 6 gr or less it is so so.

 

[jski]

Well guys, I use the ol' reliable RCBS Uniflow Powder Measure. Will this cause problems with accurately measuring Unique?

 

[Blue68f100]

I never good get mine to get more accurate ±0.2 gr. The main reason I quit using Unique.

 

[StrawHat]

I guess I get it. Lol wonder what real cowboys would say to all the action shooter loading mouse fart loads. And it seems to me trying a shorter case to get better shell extraction is cheating the whole purpose of the match. Might as well take a 1911 and ar-15 chambered in 300 blk. Lol close enough.

Also if you have a problem with a certain powder why not just switch powder? I have loaded 200 grain bullets down to 600 fps in a 45 colt with no problem with velocity changes. Used accurate #2 and titegroup.

The 45 Special can handle the same loads as the 45 ACP or the 45 AR, neither of which are mouse fart in any way. Even a full charge of black powder under a 230+ grain bullet is a decent load.

Kevin

 

[BigBore45]

The 45 Special can handle the same loads as the 45 ACP or the 45 AR, neither of which are mouse fart in any way. Even a full charge of black powder under a 230+ grain bullet is a decent load.

Kevin

That may well be but the guns they are going into are factory restricted to ,as far as pressure is concerned, 14k of 45 colt not 21k of the acp. So now it's a mouse fart loads compared to a full 45c case of black powder. Not that I have ever seen a cowboy action shooter use a full case of black. They always use filter to lesson smoke and recoil. So again back to what I said. They are using mouse fart loads.

 

[cfullgraf]

Well guys, I use the ol' reliable RCBS Uniflow Powder Measure. Will this cause problems with accurately measuring Unique?

Powder charges of Unique will be a bit more variable than easy to measure powders like W231. A variability of less than +/- 0.2 grains Unique is easily obtainable and a heavy +/- .1 grain is not out of the question. One of the beauties of Unique, is it does not seem to notice the variability.

The key to minimizing the varibility is to operate the powder measure the same way every every charge thrown. Same speed, same amount of vibration, same number of "knocks", and so forth. I like refill the powder measure more frequently to keep the powder column in the measure at about the same level. I also like to have a powder baffle in my Uniflow and other drum style powder measures but some folks get good results without one.

Hope this helps.

 

[cfullgraf]

That may well be but the guns they are going into are factory restricted to ,as far as pressure is concerned, 14k of 45 colt not 21k of the acp. So now it's a mouse fart loads compared to a full 45c case of black powder.

There should be no problem getting 45 Colt pressures in a 45 Special case except with bulky powders like Trail Boss or black powder. Hence, you will obtain nominally the same velocities with the 45 Special as with normal 45 Colt ammunition with the same bullets between the two cartridges.

Where the advantage of the 45 Special case has particularly for cowboy action shooters is with the smaller case there is less air volume in the case when shooting light loads, aka mouse fart loads. With a 45 Colt case, there is a large amount of air space with low powder charges which can lead to erratic performance of the ammunition. There is also a benefit in speed of ejecting fired cases.

 

[BigBore45]

There should be no problem getting 45 Colt pressures in a 45 Special case except with bulky powders like Trail Boss or black powder. Hence, you will obtain nominally the same velocities with the 45 Special as with normal 45 Colt ammunition with the same bullets between the two cartridges.

Where the advantage of the 45 Special case has particularly for cowboy action shooters is with the smaller case there is less air volume in the case when shooting light loads, aka mouse fart loads. With a 45 Colt case, there is a large amount of air space with low powder charges which can lead to erratic performance of the ammunition. There is also a benefit in speed of ejecting fired cases.

Yeah I understand this. If you read a previous post. I was making fun of light loads in cowboy action shooting. I don't think the cowboys of ol' would approve seems to defeat the purpose as well as easier ejection.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

In addition to the comments of Chuck (cfullgraf) I will that the use of a powder baffle in your Uniflow will help with charge consistency. You can purchase one or roll your own. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/what-a-difference-a-baffle-makes.660317/

Baffle plans http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=78980&d=1211856964

 

[Buck13]

Yeah, but...the closer the bullet is to the chamber throat before firing, the better.

So you would think, but...Shooting Times published an article not too long ago in which they tested accuracy for various revolver cartridges in magnum cylinders. Even the extreme mismatches, .44 Russian vs. .44 Magnum and .45 Scofield .vs .454 Casull, did not show any consistent accuracy trends in favor of the long cases. I don't have the copy at hand, but IIRC, .45 Scofield in a .454 chamber gave them one of the best average groups of the testing. Sorry if my memory of the specifics is wrong, but the take-home message was that the case length to chamber length mismatch did NOT hurt accuracy in the way one might reasonably predict.

 

[cp1969]

I would like to read that article. I'm not disputing their findings, I would just like to see how they set up their experiment.

Mainly because this isn't like shooting a .22 short in a LR chamber. Nor is it like the freebore in a Weatherby. This is a case in which a bullet is launched in a cylinder bore that is a little larger than case diameter, not bullet O.D. The Weatherby and .22 Short launch in a bore very close to bullet diameter.

Where does bullet upset occur in these short cartridges in a long chamber? If it were to happen in the cylinder, it would have to be swaged down considerably in the cylinder throat. If it doesn't happen in cylinder, there's about .006" clearance all around between the bullet and the cylinder for gas to go around the bullet.

It's hard for me to see anything preferable about having short brass in a long chamber other than making reloading quicker.

 

[Buck13]

I would like to read that article. I'm not disputing their findings, I would just like to see how they set up their experiment.

Finally looked through my pile of magazines. It was in Shooting Times September 2015. I had no idea it was almost 2.5 years since I saw that! Yikes.

Maybe later I can post a photo of their results tables. My memory was not perfect: Best groups were .45 Schofield in a .45 Colt cylinder. The .45 Schofield in .454 Casull cylinder averaged about 1.2", while the .454 rounds (1200 FPS with Unique, so not really full-zoot Casull) averaged 0.95".

Where does bullet upset occur in these short cartridges in a long chamber? If it were to happen in the cylinder, it would have to be swaged down considerably in the cylinder throat. If it doesn't happen in cylinder, there's about .006" clearance all around between the bullet and the cylinder for gas to go around the bullet.

Yes, you'd think that gas space around the bullet would be a problem. There's no way I believe the bullet is so plastic that it plumps up to fill the chamber completely than swages down again in the shoulder of the chamber.

OTOH, consider that the heel bullet in every .22 (non magnum) ever fired exposes the sides of the sub-caliber heel to hot gas similarly, unless those also bump up as they leave the case. Again, I doubt that happens. And yet most .22s don't lead up too rapidly. Of course, the bearing surface of the bullet is always in more or less complete contact with the cylinder throat for accuracy.

It's hard for me to see anything preferable about having short brass in a long chamber other than making reloading quicker.

Brass availability is the main reason I do it. A friend gave me a nice box of .38 Special brass. I'd buy more .357 brass if I didn't have that.

For light loads, the shorter brass should be better powder forward vs. powder back. So there's that.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I guess I get it. Lol wonder what real cowboys would say to all the action shooter loading mouse fart loads.

I'm sure they would scoff, but then again, their goals and ours are vastly different. They did what they did so they could keep on living.
We do it to take a break from the real world and have fun, fellowship with like minded people and enjoy the smell of gunpowder in the morning.

Pretty big difference.

 

[ATLDave]

Most cowboys would be amazed that we can afford to shoot hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands of rounds of ammo per year.

 

[cp1969]

OTOH, consider that the heel bullet in every .22 (non magnum) ever fired exposes the sides of the sub-caliber heel to hot gas similarly, unless those also bump up as they leave the case. Again, I doubt that happens. And yet most .22s don't lead up too rapidly. Of course, the bearing surface of the bullet is always in more or less complete contact with the cylinder throat for accuracy.

Thanks for the research and reply!

A .22 is a little different. Outside lubricated, heeled bullets are approximately the same size as the brass case OD, if not slightly larger. They're already almost cylinder throat size before they're ever fired.