.454 Casull vs. 45-70

[Archangel14]

I'm on a big bore trip and am trying to learn everything about such loads. How does the .454 Casull measure up to the 45-70? What has more recoil at the more moderate load?

I like the idea of the .454, as I can also load up for .45 colt. Your thoughts.....

 

[RPRNY]

As answered in your query on the R92 thread:

I have an H&R Handi Carbine Classic 20" that was reamed to .454 Casull and that I load for. As for a comparison of the .454 and the 45-70, as you note, the 45-70 comes in several flavors.

The .454 is the smaller .452 bullet as compared to the .458 of the 45-70 and there begin the issues. There aren't many handgun bullets that will operate at .454 rifle velocities. I use the Hornady 250 gr FTX bullet used in their factory 450 Bushmaster ammo (listed as a rifle bullet) and the 300 gr XTP MAG (mag is important because of the velocities produced).

I load the 300 gr XTP Mag at above the Hodgdon Max load of H110 for my Handi because unlike revolvers, it's good for max chamber pressures up to 65,000 psi. I have chrono'd accurate groups at 2150 fps at 5 yds from muzzle and less accurate groups at higher velocity. That is in the same velocity ballpark and bullet weight as "strong" 45-70 loads. This is a reliable 100 yd round and accurate out to 125 yds.

I load the 250 gr FTX over 26 grs H110 for 2050 fps at 5 yds from muzzle. This is below max even for revolvers because in my rifle, I found accuracy was better at slightly lower. At 29 grs H110 I got 2200 fps (5 yds from muzzle) but groups were poor. This is stilll in hot 45-70 territory, but bullet weight is low for the 45-70. I am confident with this load out to 150 yards and it is accurate out to 200, I am just not confident of the FTX at 200 yard impact speeds.

Recoil in a light single shot Handi is less than a 30-06 and less than 45-70 in the Carbine Classic's big brother, the Buffalo Classic, a heavier 32" barreled 45-70. The .454 is a sharper shove while "hot" 45-70 loads can be quite significant but tend to be longer pushes, for lack of a better explanation.

So, if you talk velocity and recoil, the .454 rifle is comparable on paper. But that misses the point of the 45-70. In stronger than Trap Door loadings, the 45-70 is artillery. It can throw 450 - 500 gr hard cast bullets a looooong way, albeit slowly, and anchor whatever it makes a bloody great hole in. Yes, the trajectory is quite 19th Century, but once a shooter figures that out, the 45-70 is death incarnate. Don't get me wrong, I really like my .454 Stutzen as a NE woods gun and bear stopper, but while the numbers may suggest some similarity, the 45-70 is another order of cartridge.

My 454 Stutzen:

 

[Archangel14]

Wonderful reply. On topic, to the point, and expertly presented. If only all of us could do so good a job.

I have a big bore bug and have seen quite a few lever actions recently that fit the bill. I was leaning 45-70 in the Marlin Guide Gun. But I recently saw a Winchester 94 that is really nice. But I'll tell you, I really wouldn't mind getting a new Rossi in .454, as I can also load it for .45 colt. I'm not a wuss when it comes to recoil, but neither am I someone who enjoys hot loads. I like the idea of having a .45 colt for recreational shooting and maybe some pig hunting, with the ability to move to the .454 for serious game. And not to sound silly, but part of my reason for wanting a big bore lever action is for self defense during Katrina and Hurricane Sandy-type moments. I suspect looters up the street will react wisely to a passing .454. What are your expert thoughts? They'd be well appreciated.

 

[adelbridge]

If you are loading yourself you dont need to mess with .45 colt brass. If you are running hunting and plinking loads your POI is going to be vastly different.

 

[Archangel14]

I don't understand. 45 Colt can be loaded whereby it's effective against smaller game, like a 120 pound pig, and yet not punishing in terms of blast and recoil. The .454 uses small rifle primers, as I understand it, and apparently has some real kick no matter how you load it. I may be incorrect in my thoughts and invite your opinion. Thanks.

 

[MCgunner]

If you are loading yourself you dont need to mess with .45 colt brass. If you are running hunting and plinking loads your POI is going to be vastly different.

I addressed that on my old .38/.357 with a click adjustable, repeatable ghost ring aperture sight I got off an old .22. I love it. Steves Gunz has replacement adjustable aperture sights for the 92. I love that gun, very capable deer/hog rifle to 100 yards firing a 165 grain gas checked SWC at near 1900 fps and I load a 105 grain cast SWC in .38 brass to 900 fps for small game.

My SIL has a .45 Colt Rossi. It's got more whap on the shoulder with heavy .45 Colt than does my .357, but it's not abusive. I'm a belted magnum lover and 10 gauge shooter, though, so that might not mean much.

 

[hang fire]

I have an original JM Marlin Ballard #5 Pacific in 45-70 with an excellent bore, only shoot lead and real BP. That rifle is so accurate at long range it is scary. When I first got it, thought of it as a collector piece with maybe an occasional 200 yard rock and can buster, but could not be more pleasantly surprised.