.455 the "Manstopper!"

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I actually had Corbin make up some dies to swage some of these in .44 Special. The trick is that the hollow cavity must be on both ends of the bullet otherwise it will become tail heavy and keyhole. You can't just load a hollow base wadcutter backwards or it will tumble.
 
...so the U.S. went from the .69 musket, to the .58 musket, to the .45-70...
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Jim, you forgot the 58 Rimfire and the 50-70. Both were responsible for the adoption of the flatter shooting 45-70.
 
"In fact, is it a sufficiant SD caliber and size game can it take?"

One aspect of the .455 265 gr 650 fps round often not mentioned is it's very low recoil compared to modern 900 fps plus loads.
Very pleasant and very fast follow up shooting. Now I'm not really interested in using 100 yr old or older revolvers for SD,but it's not to be sneezed at, the penetration is formidable.A brace of these would serve in close combat on the 19th century dust ups with Zulus Dervishes etc.
I have had several including 1889 WG army models and loaded them with unique ...great fun.
 
I sometimes carry my .455 Webley as a SD gun. Mine has been cut for .45 ACP on moon clips, but I load .45 ACP and .45 auto rim to Webley pressures with a .454 RNFP lead slug. My Webley is a Mk VI made in 1926.
 
Re question previous page I think the sign was tinplate but it was so long ago I can't recall.
 
Low velocity ammo does bounce off sheet steel, it doesn't in flesh or hide tho.No body mentions the .455 performance in the La Guardia tests, geez I'm showing my age !
 
Owen Sparks, would you be willing to make and sell any of those double-hollow wadcutters?
I'd love to load a bunch of them in .44 Special.
 
One aspect of the .455 265 gr 650 fps round often not mentioned is it's very low recoil compared to modern 900 fps plus loads.
Very pleasant and very fast follow up shooting. Now I'm not really interested in using 100 yr old or older revolvers for SD,but it's not to be sneezed at, the penetration is formidable.A brace of these would serve in close combat on the 19th century dust ups with Zulus Dervishes etc.
I have had several including 1889 WG army models and loaded them with unique ...great fun.

Your imagery conjures up a scene where a steadily diminishing thin line of redcoats are stoically banging away with their Snider- Enfields or would it be Martini-Henrys at an approaching horde of Zulus and just as the line is broken by a bunch of giant warriors getting into their midst some pink cheeked 19 year old Second Lieutenant turns up with a Webley in each hand, 12 shots and stabilises the situation, probably handing over his pistols to the trembling hands of his manservant to reload, while he picks up a rifle with its fixed bayonet to help out in the meantime. The key element or requirement in this situation would be the need for total reliability or trustworthiness in the Webleys and I guess this is what you got with this weapon. Ah well, now back to my day dreaming. - I won't inflict any more of this on you.
 
The original bullet was obviously lacking for defense against natives, as the MkIII Manstopper was created. That's the old problem of RN's penetrating without shocking.

Now my concern with WC and SWC bullets is the timing of the gun.
The few Webley and New Service revolvers I have owned or seen wouldn't index properly in DA and often not even in Single Action.
The hammer being released before the cylinder could lock, the bullets would hit the back of the barrel before wacking the cylinder locked and settling in the bore.

The standard RN bullet with a hollow point would make more sense to me. At least, the ogive should catch the forcing cone without hitting the barrel's end.


There's a good piece on the caliber here: http://cartridgecollectors.org/?page=introduction-to-455-cartridges
 
" The original bullet was obviously lacking for defense against natives, as the MkIII Manstopper was created. That's the old problem of RN's penetrating without shocking.".

I'm not sure that is the real story. The .455 was used in its round nosed form effectively in " The Great War" against the nefarious Hun.
The man stopper saw little if any real use.
 
I'm not sure that is the real story. The .455 was used in its round nosed form effectively in " The Great War" against the nefarious Hun.
The man stopper saw little if any real use.
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The "Manstopper," regardless of its effectiveness or lack thereof was banned by the Hague Convention of 1899, and could not be used in warfare.
 
The "manstopper", as said earlier, was a low profile wadcutter, which was actually banned by the military.

Look up Dum Dum bullets if you want more info. It was an alteration made to Webley's .455 at the Dum Dum arsenal in India. If a soldier was caught with some by the enemy in WWI or WWII they were put to death. They were considered inhumane.

*cough* What Vern said. I read gud. >.>
 
To answer the original question, the MK III (HP) and MK IV (solid wadcutter) .455 ammo were termed "manstoppers: because they were designed to stop fanatical tribesmen about where we're again fighting in Afghanistan.

They were supposedly very effective, but I think were issued mainly in India and other remote parts of the Empire. I believe that by WW I, only the MK II normal load was issued to fight the war against Germany. It was quite effective at close range.

Because Germany complained about all lead bullets before WW II, all .455 ammo issued for combat in WW II was the MK VI, a FMJ bullet otherwise like the MK II.
 
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I encourage folks to drop by here for some more info on the 455 rounds. No doubt one reason the Her Majesty's Empire collapsed was their cinfusing military ordnance nomenclature.

http://cartridgecollectors.org/?page=introduction-to-455-cartridges

http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/3053/455-Manstopper-bullet-specs#.UFiouK4sCSo

Anyway, as others have said the .455 "Manstopper" round was simply a big lead hollowpoint bullet, cupped at both ends so it had some small stability in flight. The 218-255 gr., or so, round went about 600-700 fps (in that range). The British believed in big and quite slow.

At the time the British developed it they were going through a period where they were obsessed with stopping power (or so some authors state) and the big hollowpoint was a part of that trend.

The bullet did not earn the title Manstopper it was given it by it's makers, Ely I believe. The round never saw service that I've heard of. Introduced in 1898 or so it was removed in 1900 or so as violating the Hague Convention. (Or to look at it as it was, the colonialists and imperialists signed a treaty between them outlawing ammo a couple of years after smokeless powder rendered big bore lead bullets at moderate velocity of any type useless as military rounds.)

The "Manstopper" was tried in the Thompson LeGrande tests but passed on as not as effective as the 45 Colt.

It's kind of interesting that when the British moved from the 455 loads they eventually went to the 380/200 which was a 200 gr. bullet in the 38 S&W cartridge (not the 38 Spl.!) which went about 650 fps or so. They claimed it worked as well as the "Manstopper", at least in shocking power.

Here an old thread on this...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=80187



tipoc
 
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Now THAT's the one I want!

Wasn't there like a .577 Tranter or something? Check this business out! Under the armpit would stop them best from what I heard.
 
Hello,
I recently came across a 1915 .455 Webley Mk VI.
The manstopper is 'unbutchered' and in perfect condition under general inspection.
As I'm a shooter rather than a collector, I'll only buy it if I can safely use it. I mean safely for me and for that old gun that deserves respect.
I read about .455 Webley to .45 ACP conversion and I won't go that way, so may I ask you the following :

1. would you bring such an old revolver from an old friend's attic to the shooting range ?
2. there are several .455 cartridges, is the one I should look for the Mk II ?
3. factory MkII's are unavailable and I have plenty of 45Colt brass, so I'll convert some. I'd like to hear advices about this part I'm not familiar with.
4. I don't have no furnace and don't plan to get one, so I'm likely to buy factory bullets. Is it true I should avoid any kind of jacketted bullets ?

Thank you for your advices.
 
1 : I shoot a 1926 Mk VI and even keep it beside my bed as my home defense gun.

2 : Yes

3 : Fiocci makes factory Mk II ammo, and Cabelas sells it. But it's not cheap.

4 : Using lead only will cut down on the wear to the rifling.
 
Thank you for your help Kaeto.
I've been looking around and it seems like there's a general shortage for a year or so on .455 MkII.
I usually use .452 HB copper platted bullets in my 1911. What do you think about using them in the Webley ?
 
Pistolosaur said:
1. would you bring such an old revolver from an old friend's attic to the shooting range ?
2. there are several .455 cartridges, is the one I should look for the Mk II ?
3. factory MkII's are unavailable and I have plenty of 45Colt brass, so I'll convert some. I'd like to hear advices about this part I'm not familiar with.
4. I don't have no furnace and don't plan to get one, so I'm likely to buy factory bullets. Is it true I should avoid any kind of jacketted bullets ?
Click to expand...

1. Yep, do it all the time.

2. Mk II is standard.

3. I use new Hornady brass: http://www.huntingtons.com/store/product.php?productid=17236&cat=0&bestseller=Y

4. Not sure it makes that much difference, but lead is cheaper so that's what I use.
 
As I'm a shooter rather than a collector, I'll only buy it if I can safely use it. I mean safely for me and for that old gun that deserves respect.
I read about .455 Webley to .45 ACP conversion and I won't go that way, so may I ask you the following :

1. would you bring such an old revolver from an old friend's attic to the shooting range ?


Yep but caution advised ....
I have shot hundreds of rounds through a Webley Mark I, yes its the 19th century black powder first version....Recipes for hand loads are about 60-65% .45 ACP load with powder(usually Unique) topped with either soft .452 or .454 lead rd. nose 220 -255 gr,
Penetration of metal be damned ..ya dont wanna be on the receiving end
 
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