.45acp and 10mm

[jgo296]

Ok im new, but ive been reading alot.
Id really like replies limited to the question im about to ask.
I was looking through doubletabs ammunition (www.doubletabammo.com) and noticed how fast they make the .45 fly. These are not +p loads either. In similar weights the .45 travels about 125 ft/sec slower than the 10mm. I always hear how versatile the 10mm is because it can be hunted with.
Does the 125ft/sec lower velocity really make the 45 that much less effective as a hunter or penetrator?

 

[bdg146]

Check out this thread from the hunting forum:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=24332

 

[jgo296]

thanks for that link it does discuss the 45 well but still looking for opinions on how far behind the 10mm the 45 actually is as a critter gun

 

[roscoe]

Well, the sectional density of the 10mm is higher, and so it penetrates better. Plus, it is easily available in hardcast, which greatly increases penetration through bone, etc.

The 10mm has much more raw power than the .45ACP, as well, due to the case capacity and the pressure it was designed for. It is a much more versatile round, but it is more expensive and there are fewer firearms that fire it. The 10mm is often compared to the .357, which is often used as a hunting round, and similar loads are available.

If Ruger made the 345 in 10mm I would own a 10mm, but as of yet the perfect DA/SA 10mm is not manufactured. My dad has the Glock 29 and my buddy shoots a Glock 20. Both of them are solid guns, but I prefer DA/SA and can't bring myself to trust EAA.

Do a search on the 10mm and bear, for instance, to read more.

 

[jgo296]

cool are fmj bulletts not as hard as cast?
and can a glock 20 shoot cast bullets?

 

[Harley Quinn]

cool are fmj bullets not as hard as cast?
and can a glock 20 shoot cast bullets?

The fmj are the way to go in the glock barrels, if you want to shoot the cast get a barrel from Lone Wolf or another barrel maker that is designed to shoot them, I like the 6"... They don't really recommend cast reloads in Glocks for a good reason. Reeds makes some good loadings, I have shot them and they shoot well (fmj)...

HQ

 

[BlindJustice]

COrrection - Ballistic Coefficient is a measure of any particular bullet
to retain it's velocity which can be enhanced by the bullet's
shape. Penetration factors - initial entry velocity
as well as bullet type and construction.

The .45 drops more at 100 yard range,

I like the 10MM but not enough to buy one,
I've got a .400 CorBon Bbl. for the fiscally
responsible and resourceful shooter.

.

 

[jgo296]

ok so how much more penetration are we talking about out of the 10mm?
would the 10mm also be superior for shooting through a car door?

 

[loop]

I shot thousands of cast rounds through my Glock 20 and never had any problem. OTOH, I kept it clean and maintained it.

The reason you aren't seeing too much difference between the 10mm and .45 in published data is that no factory loads a 10mm to anywhere near its maximum capability. I've chronographed hand-loaded 180-grain bullets out of my 10mm at more than 1,600 fps with no indications of excess pressure.

You won't get anywhere near the ballistics out of a .45.

My main complaint about the 10mm as a hunting load is that it penetrates so far so fast it doesn't have time to expand in the first several inches. A .40 does a better job of expanding and transferring energy on media or flesh. Of course you can always download the 10 to .40 ballistics.

Will it go through a car door? How many do you want to go through?

Spend enough time at the loading bench and you can cook up a load that will go through both sides of a pickup with the windows rolled down or crack an engine block. Been there, done that.

But, if you really want top performance you'll cast your own bullets and alloy them hard enough to achieve all the penetration you could ask for.

And no, just because there's some brass or copper around a FMJ doesn't make it harder than cast. It depends on how hard the core is to begin with and most FMJs don't have a very hard core.

And, if lead is hard enough it won't lead your barrel, might wear it out pretty fast, but won't leave lead in it.

 

[Harley Quinn]

I like the 10MM but not enough to buy one,
I've got a .400 CorBon Bbl. for the fiscally
responsible and resourceful shooter.

BlindJustice,

I have the 10mm barrel and the 400 barrel that fits my mdl 21 Glock 45 and I shoot them on a regular basis. The 400 is lower pressure and gets some very good results. I was e-mailing the person who loads them and he explained some interesting things about the reason for the abilities (up/down side) of the 400 vs the 10mm... it is interesting the backthrust that happens with the 400 corbon in comparison to the 10mm. The reason being is the design of the case and why if you go to high in pressure with the 400, it is really unpleasent to shoot and could be dangerous to the shooter (under normal 22 pound spring).

I have a couple of 400 corbon barrels for my 1911's but I am not liking the lack of metal around the chamber to experiment with them...But the 21 has a lot of metal and is a very strong barrel to try this with IMHO...

I'll, Jack up the pressures/slower burning powder also, (a lot will depend on how much the case will hold) and go to higher/stronger (pound) in a recoil spring, I think will be able to get some real nice figures out of the 400, it is a better round for feeding and extraction from my 21 than the 10mm barrel will do...The big test will be the primer (flatening, use the hardest going and softest to test I am thinking) Then of course you have accuracy to consider... Some day I'll have to play with it if I have nothing better to do

Have you done any investigation about this round yourself? Have you seen any good figures on this?

 

[boomer1911a1]

Another reason for the seemingly close comparison is you're looking at Double Tap's (I think... your link said "doubletab" .45 ACP ammo -- which tends to run a bit faster than the "standard" loading of 230-gr @ 850 fps.

Sure, .45 ACP can be loaded up (and with lighter bullets) to increase velocity and muzzle energy, but 10mm was designed with a higher ceiling. Plus, with the 10mm, you get the benefit of higher capacity than the .45.

 

[BlindJustice]

Uh, I would debate Loops asserations of penetration
without mentioning to the O.P. it depends on bullet type,
shape & construction.

For All, I sent Harley Quinn a private message asking
if we oughta start a new thread about .400 CorBon and
not HiJack this one.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Sounds good for the new thread.

The 10 mm only pistol would not be a bad shooter, but the problem is I like my mdl 21 and its ability to shoot several different barrels, as I have already mentioned. In todays various barrels and pistols I feel to be stuck with one shooter is foolish. But for others they may feel the same about me

Around the casa I like the 45 cal. Out and about I carry the G22 in 357 Sig a lot also. LOL

 

[moooose102]

to address your original question, the 125 ft/sec IS going to make a difference. how much, is another question. i personally believe that it would only make a difference in very marginal conditions. that being said, under normal circumstances, where you have a good clean shot at reasonable ranges, either cartridge would perform just fine. i carry my 45 acp into the woods for the purpose of shooting deer at very close ranges. however, under extroadinary circumstances ( the bullet hit a branch you did not see, the deer turned at the last second and now you have a less than optimal shot, you under estimated the range or in some other way end up with poor shot placement ) then, the extra velocity, which translates into extra energy, and extra hydraulic shock, MIGHT make the difference between getting the animal cleanly, or tracking it for hours and possibly loosing it. there are no absoloutes in hunting. do your absoloute best, and go for it. if that is the only thing that makes or breaks the hunt, you probably have it made! good luck with you decision, and hunting!

 

[mpmarty]

Back to the difference(s) in 10mm vs 45acp projectiles:

The higher sectional density (diameter vs weight) of the 10mm leads to it having a higher ballistic coefficient all other things being equal (shape of bullet etc.) which results in both flatter trajectory and deeper penetration with more retained energy at the target. Any way you twist it, the 10mm wins.

 

[jgo296]

has anybody tried the 29 round mag for glock10mm's?

 

[Big Boomer]

deeper penetration with more retained energy

Deeper penetration is related to momentum not speed. Yes, ballistic coefficient does play a part but 5 thousandths of and inch in a JHP will not make a hoot of difference as long as the metplat is the same.

Lighter, faster bullets will penetrate less when using a standard jacketed hollowpoint. Even the 460 Rowland using the same bullets as a 45 acp will tend to penetrate less with lighter bullets.

The problem occurs when the jacket starts to shed and the bullet fragments. Heavier slower bullets retain weight and shape better allowing for more penetration.

Truth be told that if you use bullets of close to the same weight in either caliber you get similar results. There are some pretty light bullets out there for the 45 too.

Until you get to rifle energy levels, or speeds and I should also add bullet construction, energy is moot point.

When the 460 Mag approaches 2200 fps with a 240 grain bullet, they have to be constructed differently, or they would simply explode on impact. Same bullet diameter only 10 grains heavier...

Yes, a 10mm kicks harder, has more energy, is faster, has a flatter trajectory. So I guess if you were hunting white tail deer taking a neck shot at 100 yards it would be the better choice.

Now the answer about the 125ft/sec. NO it will not make a hoot of a difference. Bump that up a couple hundred more and then yes but that spread is negligible.

 

[loop]

I'm not sure I can locate the test data anymore, but the reason I know 10mm does not deliver its energy as efficiently as the .40 in soft medium is the result of extensive testing that was published about a decade ago.

It started when I loaded a number of identical bullets into .40 cartridges and into 10mm cases. The .40s were loaded to reproduce factory ballistics as closely as possible. The 10s were loaded to not blow up (as hot as I knew I could go without obvious signs of pressure problems).

Bullets were standard off-the-shelf rounds. One was 180-grain Golden Sabers and another was the same weight in a Speer HP, I forgot which one, as well as other weights and types.

I took about 20 empty milk jugs to the range and filled them with water. I began shooting milk jugs with a Glock 20 expecting them to blow to pieces. To my surprise the entry hole was about bullet diameter and the exit hole was about 1 1/4 to 2 inches across. Water drained out of them for a while after shooting them.

When I shot the same bullets out of the much slower .40 load out of a Kahr K40 Covert the jugs would rip apart. Sometimes they ended up in more than one piece. They would literally jump off the log I was using to set them up.

This prompted extensive testing that involved ballistics experts at a major bullet manufacturer. In the end we discovered that 10mm cartridges loaded to velocities slightly higher than maximum .40 velocities (about 100 to 200 fps) delivered optimum performance against soft medium (ie: ballistic gelatin and water) than when bullet velocities were pushed a couple hundred fps faster.

Thompson's and Hatcher's work verifies the theory even if it was done 80 years before I did it on different calibers. I just wasn't bright enough to accept the findings of those fine minds and had to test it for myself. I don't feel too badly about it though because all the components we used were supplied for free by companies that wanted to see our independent test results. They didn't subscribe to Thompson either.

In short, the bullet needs to spend enough time in the medium to expend its energy. The whole theory of energy transfer changes when velocities reach rifle velocities. But then we are talking massive differences in velocity and energy transfer.

But, I would point out the .30 carbine is the most anemic CF rifle round out there. I'd rather shoot my target with a big pistol. Add 1,000 fps to a 115-grain, .30 caliber and you have a devastating weapon (on human tissue).

The results of our 10 vs. .40 testing were published, but I doubt I could find them anymore even though I wrote it and it had my byline.

However, I know of no one who has fired more .40 and 10mm into ballistic gelatin, water and chronographs than me. I really miss that job. To think I actually got paid to do that crap. What I do now is so much more boring...

I will add that tremendous differences my be found in bullet performance in a very narrow range. Testing of 124-grain, 9mm Golden Sabers found none expanded in water at under 930 fps. Between 930 and 940 fps 80 percent expanded. Beyond 950 fps 100 percent showed some degree of expansion. That is a range of 20 fps. I used to have a really cool cement pond with a wire mesh strainer on the bottom right next to a tower with a chronograph mounted on the side so we could shoot straight into the water from a height of 21 feet... God I miss that job!

Exterior ballistics are fun and can be documented, but delving into the mysterious realm of interior ballistics like the .400 Corbon... Now we're treading on ground that is still misunderstood to this day!

I'll follow the .400 Corbon thread. I've been thinking of getting a barrel in that so I could do side-by-side exterior ballistics testing against 10mm. It should be very interesting.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Loop,
Interesting information you are giving out. Years ago shooting the 44 spl/38 spl, and 45 acp, the shape and design of the bullet was a biggie.

Jim Cirillo wrote a good book about it called Guns, Bullets, and Gunfights.

Just recently a friend of mine has been bringing his 44 spl around more to shoot (bulldog), its so slow as it moves thru the target (7 yds) it tears it and almost looks like it is wobbling, but is not. Goes back to the old thought of keeping the energy at the right level to be contained and absorbed by the item being hit with it.

I have experimented with it also back numerous years ago, 20 odd. (prior to that it was we and not just me, pre autos for LEO at LAPD) The revolvers were the ones I was using though. The design of the bullet is a biggie. One of the reasons I prefer the 10 and 40 design over the 9mm and 45 acp. Hollowpoint being the saving grace for the latter.

You mention the 30 M1 being a sad bullet it is if you are shooting the bullet that is designed to be used in the auto similar to the 9mm and 45 acp. Change the bullet design and shoot it out of a revolver or single shot, and things change. Feeding the semi wad cutter is the problem.

I used to shoot the 45 acp out of a revolver (like I mentioned) cast your own and it is a different deal for sure. "Semi wad cutter" was the design I preferred. Hmmm similar to what the 40 and 10 are today Interesting for sure.

HQ