Gelatin test says 9mm = 45ACP for SD?

[Bill_G]

Does the following results from brassfetcher.com mean that the 9mm Golden Saber is as effective as a .45ACP Gold Dot?

If so, how come everyone touts .45 so much?? If not.... why not? not trying to start something.....just want to be able to interpret these findings.

I dont see any practical difference between .627 (9mm) and .667 (45ACP) for SD

Thanks...........Bill
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Firearm : Recoil-operated semi-automatic with 4.02" barrel length

Ammunition : Remington 9mm 147gr Golden Saber JHP

Block Calibration : All depths are corrected depths (590 ft/sec @ 10.7cm)

Shot 1 : Impacted at 993ft/sec, penetrated to 14.5" and had an average diameter of 0.618".

Shot 2 : Impacted at 982ft/sec, penetrated to 14.5" and had an average diameter of 0.612".

Shot 3 : Impacted at 981ft/sec, penetrated to 14.5" and had an average diameter of 0.622".

Shot 4 : Impacted at 959ft/sec, penetrated to 14.5" and had an average diameter of 0.627".

Shot 5 : Impacted at 962ft/sec, penetrated to 14.5" and had an average diameter of 0.613".




Cartridge : .45ACP Speer Gold Dot 200gr +P (Load # 23969)

Firearm : Recoil-operated semi-auto with 3.8" barrel length.

Calibration : '591' ± 0.500 ft/sec at 8.7 ± 0.05cm BB penetration.

Velocities not recorded due to failing light (chronograph malfunctioned on calibration shot).

Shot 1 penetrated to 12.3 ± 0.031” and expanded to 0.668 ± 0.0005”

Shot 2 penetrated to 12.4 ± 0.031” and expanded to 0.665 ± 0.0005”

Shot 3 penetrated to 12.1 ± 0.031” and expanded to 0.659 ± 0.0005”

Shot 4 penetrated to 12.3 ± 0.031” and expanded to 0.667 ± 0.0005”

Shot 5 penetrated to 13.0 ± 0.031” and expanded to 0.661 ± 0.0005”
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[rcmodel]

Makes a bigger hole before it expands.

Bigger hole = More blood out & air in.

There is also a certain segment of the population that feel a big heavy bullet beats a smaller less heavy bullet every time.

Play around with this:
http://www.handloads.com/calc/quick.asp

rcmodel

 

[AndyC]

...how come everyone touts .45 so much?? If not.... why not?

Why not, indeed. Personally I prefer the .45 but have never felt under-gunned with a 9mm. Way I look at it is this - the smaller the caliber, the more skilled you need to be.

 

[Rampant_Colt]

9mm vs .45 ? this is a new one...

Gelatin testing is a resource with which to compare how one bullet performs in gelatin against another, and how a particular bullet performs after encountering barriers.

Is the 9mm 147gr Golden Saber as terminally-effective as the Speer 200gr +P .45 ACP Gold Dot? Yes.

Note the consistent 14-1/2" of penetration and .61-.62 diameter the GS got. It also will reliably expand after encountering heavy clothing. The same cannot be said of the .45 Speer 200gr Gold Dot. The tests were conducted using bare gelatin only. Add four layers of denim in front of the gel, and it's the true test of whether a bullet will expand under the most adverse of conditions.

* I've read [somewhere...!] that the Speer 200gr Gold Dot in .45 ACP does not reliably expand after encountering heavy clothing.


If the expanded 9mm is the same diameter as the .45, there's no difference in "bigger hole size", or any advantage to the .45. That theory goes out the window.... Most hollowpoint bullets are fully expanded after 3" to 5" inches of penetration

Another 9mm -vs- .45 ACP thread

 

[yeti]

If the fact that the barrels are different lengths, his calibrations are different(or seem so), no velocities are given for the .45, his methods of measurements are different, no ranges, seems like a lot of things either left out or not included, and I have never heard of anyone needing to shoot a block of hostile Jello in SD......it is kind of hard to form an informed opinion from that chart.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

It makes a bigger total wound, because it is bigger before and during expansion. And it's better if for whatever reason, they fail to expand.

Also the .45 acp is, from what I hear, less likely to be deflected by bone, which could ruin even the most well-placed shot. And I really don't want to die because my bullet got deflected.

 

[Rampant_Colt]

splitting hairs

I would feel equally well-armed with either a .45 stoked with 200gr Gold Dots, OR a 9mm stoked with 147gr Golden Sabers.... Just put the bullet in the 10-ring bullseye, and the fight's over.

A .45 better than a 9mm? Only in the imagination of a gun writer out of material

 

[Rustynuts]

If the expanded 9mm is the same diameter as the .45, there's no difference in "bigger hole size", or any advantage to the .45. That theory goes out the window.... Most hollowpoint bullets are fully expanded after 3" to 5" inches of penetration

Still not as simplistic as hole size. The 45 still is heavier and has more momentum behind it. More bone breaking potential, not just glancing off.

 

[Deer Hunter]

For some reason, all tests I have seen for the 200 grain .45 ACP load have been displeasing. 185 and 230 grain loads, of the same bullet, have always done better.

 

[NonConformist]

Because a 9mm MIGHT expand but a .45 wont shrink!

 

[Marcus L.]

In the grand scheme of things, the difference between the two is indeed marginal in comparison to shot placement, followup shot speed(three small hits gives you better incapacitation odds than two larger ones), overall control, and overall handling. In other parts of the world, 9mm is the big bore caliber while they also use 7mms and smaller. Then again, in other parts of the world pistols are not common place as SMGs or assault rifles.

However, provided that you can shoot larger calibers "equally" as well as you can the 9mm, then you do get a significant advantage. That advantage being the chance of hitting a incapacitating portion of the body when a smaller caliber may just miss it.

Here's a good quote by Urey Patrick at Quantico many years ago and it rings true:

"Shot placement is obviously critical, and our test criteria presume that the shot is placed in the vital area of the body, which contains the brain, upper spinal cord, heart and aorta/vena cava. This area runs from just above the eyes to the diaphragm, and is about 4 inches wide. But, as our experience in Miami amply illustrates, shot placement is only the first part of the equation. Jerry Dove placed his shot perfectly(he was using a P226 9mm with 115gr Winchester Silver Tips). Bullet performance is critical to translate shot placement into an effective, incapacitating wound. If shot placement was all that mattered, we could arm all Agents with .22's. Secondly, perfect shot placement may be difficult to attain in the stress and dynamics of a shooting incident. The larger calibers offer a "margin of error" in that where a smaller bullet may just miss the aorta, for example, the larger one in the same placement will damage it. A good example is killing a 400 pound pig with a .22, something commonly done on the farm. If the shot placement is exactly right, the pig is instantly killed. If it is off less than an inch, the pig goes wild and the process of killing it becomes rather lengthy and involved, whereas a larger caliber would succeed with a larger margin of miss than an inch.(Larger calibers are not used because they ruin too much of the pig - a consideration that does not come into play in a shooting incident - and besides which, nobody is going to die if the pig is not instantly killed anyway. In shootings, just the opposite is true)."

You should definately consider reading the full briefing here:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

In the last 20 years, the 9mm has greatly improved since Mr. Patrick's report to the FBI. Now days, the 9mm is capable much larger and reliable expansion, in addition to being able to penetrate all FBI barrier test protocols while still penetration 12+ inches in ballistic gel. Personally, I find the 9mm to be a better pistol caliber option for me than .45acp because of platform characteristics. I also like the .40 for duty carry.

Winchester Ranger Bonded Ammunition:

9mm+P 124gr(1180fps)BONDED: (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 12.6”/.68”
Through Denim: 18.7”/.54”
Through Heavy Cloth: 18.2”/.56”
Through Wallboard: 11.9”/.64”
Through Plywood: 15.8”/.57”
Through Steel: 22”/.42”
Through Auto Glass: 12.7”/.58”

9mm 147gr(995)BONDED: [FBI LOAD](Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 14.7”/.62”
Through Denim: 16.5”/.59”
Through Heavy Cloth: 15.8”/.58”
Through Wallboard: 16.7”/.56”
Through Plywood: 16.5”/.59”
Through Steel: 19”/.42”
Through Auto Glass: 12.6”/.55”

.357sig 125gr(1350fps)BONDED: (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 12.5”/.59”
Through Denim: 15.9”/.57”
Through Heavy Cloth: 16.9”/.55”
Through Wallboard: 14.7”/.62”
Through Plywood: 16.0”/.60”
Through Steel: 21.7”/.44”
Through Auto Glass: 12.8”/.62”

.40S&W 180gr(1070fps)BONDED: [FBI LOAD](Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 14.8”/.67”
Through Denim: 21.8”/.51”
Through Heavy Cloth: 19”/.59”
Through Wallboard: 16.7”/.61”
Through Plywood: 15.5”/.62”
Through Steel: 14.8”/.55”
Through Auto Glass: 12.4”/.63”

.45acp 230gr(905fps)BONDED: (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 14”/.73”
Through Denim: 15.8”/.67”
Through Heavy Cloth: 15.8”/.68”
Through Wallboard: 14.7”/.69”
Through Plywood: 16.5”/.74”
Through Steel: 14.8”/.56”
Through Auto Glass: 12.5”/.66”

If anything, the 9mm is starting to gain ground again in the US with ammo advances. In the rest of the world, it will likely be the dominant handgun caliber for at least another half century.

 

[ugaarguy]

Right now I mostly shoot .45 ACP because I shoot 1911s better than any other pistol, and I haven't gotten my hands on a 1911 in 9mm yet. I'm not hung up on caliber. I shoot my S&W 5946 (DAO version of the 5906) pretty well, and I feel as adequately armed with it as I do any of my 1911s. I'm confident with those guns because range time has shown me that I shoot them fairly well (and shoot them better than I shoot most other semi-autos).

As you've seen from the ballistic gel testing at brass fetcher, and hopefully other site as well, modern hollow points generally work well. Pick any major brand JHP in any caliber from 9x19 on up and your shot placement will matter far more than the caliber or the particular loading in that caliber. Shorter barrel handguns require a little more care in load choice (particularly .38 Special snubbies), but the idea remains the same. You're still shooting a primary service sidearm caliber, and your ability to place the shots is the most important factor.

Some prefer the .45 ACP for its lower pressure, and resultant lower flash and muzzle blast. Others prefer the 9x19 for its softer recoil and less expensive practice ammunition. We can all sit here and make cases for either caliber until our hands get cramped from typing.

Who cares what someone else shoots in terms of caliber? If the gun fits you, and you shoot it well then you have the important part down.

 

[sturmgewehr]

According to an FBI study, the caliber used in a gunfight makes about a 1% difference in the outcome (service grade calibers such as 9mm, .38, .45, .40, etc.). You can get 9mm's with 500ft/lbs of muzzle energy and you can get .45's with 500ft/lbs of muzzle energy (upper end of the spectrum).

In the end it's not about caliber so much as it is about shot placement. For many the 9mm allows faster follow up shots and a higher magazine capacity. This, to many, off sets the relatively insignificant ballistic superiority of the .45 ACP.

There's a reason the world uses 9mm. It's because it's one of the better handgun rounds.

I too like .45's though... it's my personal preference. Not just for the caliber, but also for the platform. I really like the 1911 as it shoots very well for me.

 

[Marcus L.]

Opps, ignore post.

 

[Crazy Fingers]

Look around on there and you can find lots of pics that give lots of information. What I notice is that hot loads of .40 S&W, 9mm, and .45 ACP are all quite devastating. I believe that any of them are acceptable choices. Because of that, I'll take the highest magazine capacity.

 

[steelyblue]

I have my 9mm loaded with golden sabers and my 45 loaded with golden sabers as well. If someone breaks into my house, I will shoot him with both. I'll let him decide which one hurts worse!!! I like them both. The golden sabers are cheap and they cycle really good in both guns.

 

[rbernie]

Self defense ammo should be about more than just expansion in gelatin. Choosing your chambering and carry ammo should include factors such as feed reliability, low light flash signature, barrier penetration characteristics, and so forth.

Anyone that picks a chambering or bullet design based upon Jello tests is extrapolating far too much from far too little data.

 

[wally]

Anyone that picks a chambering or bullet design based upon Jello tests is extrapolating far too much from far too little data

I just buy whatever "premium" SD ammo is on sale when I need more and worry only about my bullet placement on the target which is the most important thing.

Where you put the bullet on the target will make a whole lot more difference in effectiveness than whether it expands to 0.60" vs. 0.67"

--wally.

 

[Ben86]

In the real world 2mm in width does not make a huge difference. So even ball ammo of both calibers will yield similar stopping power.

Add jhps to the equation and the two calibers become even more similar in performance. The huge jump in extra width you get from a mushroomed jhp makes a difference.

Shot placement is pistol stopping power.

My signature pretty much sums up my feelings on pistol calibers.

 

[1SOW]

+1 rcmodel

The FBI and other sites will end up talking about "bleeding out" as often the final determination of stopping power.

 

[NG VI]

I dont see any practical difference between .627 (9mm) and .667 (45ACP) for SD

Nailed it

 

[Disaster]

Your comparison shows how close they can be and how picking a good load in one, vs. an average, or poor load in another can make more difference than the caliber itself.

I guarantee you a Federal LE 230 gr. HST will outperform any 9mm load you can find. But, it is unlikely the extra performance would make much of a difference.

Bottom line: They are both virtually equal in effectiveness if you do your job. If you want to see a real difference in efficacy, you need to move up to a rifle or shotgun...but you still need to do your job with those.

FYI: My carry is a 9mm because it has more capacity in a smaller package. For HD, I've got a shotgun and a .45 with laser and light.

 

[jerryrigger]

i know this isnt the most scientific of explanations, but theres something about the much larger holes that a 45 punches even in range paper that makes me a little more confident in it than in a 9mm if i ever had to stop something in its tracks. that said...didnt the army do a study fairly recently in conjunction with the JSP program that said that anything under a 45 was less than likely to stop an oncoming attacker in his tracks? i know the army has to use ball ammo etc., and i know the current issue is still a 9mm, but when they were taking JSP bids i remember reading that this was the reason they decided 45 was the caliber they wanted...

 

[Ghost Walker]

Good to know for the next time you have to go up against -


THE BLOB!

 

[NG VI]

didnt the army do a study fairly recently in conjunction with the JSP program that said that anything under a 45 was less than likely to stop an oncoming attacker in his tracks? i know the army has to use ball ammo etc., and i know the current issue is still a 9mm, but when they were taking JSP bids i remember reading that this was the reason they decided 45 was the caliber they wanted...

From reading the older books on stopping power, Cor-Bon and Glock plugs that they were, they did say that the coroners they had spoken to all said that when ball ammunition was used, they could generally not tell the difference between most pistol calibers. I think it was quite a drastic non-difference to boot.

FMJ is about the worst performing pistol ammunition ever developed for use against people, which is why so much money has gone into the development of JHP ammunition.