.45acp Carbine - Effective Range?

[JohnnyFlake]

I am considering a .45acp Carbine with a 17 1/2" barrel. I am trying to figure out what the realistic effective range would be. I am unaware of any mathematical way to do that. Off the top of my head, with standard 230gn ball ammo, I am thinking 125 yards.

All thoughts and opinions will be appreciated.

 

[Demos]

Hi,
I suppose it depends on what you mean by Effective Range. Since the 230gr is big and slow, it keeps its energy pretty well ( Hornady Balistic Calculator shows 319 ft/lbs and 790 dos at the muzzle and still 227 ft/lbs and 667fps at 250 yards). Your big problem is drop. With a 100 yard zero, you have 23" of drop at 150 yards and 63" at 200 yards. So even though the bullet has energy at the 259 yard mark I mentioned before, you have 121" of drop from your 100 yard zero.

For a man sized target, your 125yd seems about right, 100 yard zero gives you 7" high at 50 yards, 9.5" low at 125 yards. After that, it's dropping like a rock.

Demos

 

[Bullseye]

I saw a video on youtube about this that I thought was pretty good.
It's pretty long but I was surprised at the findings this guys test shows.
LINK

 

[C-grunt]

While the round will still be effective out to a decent range, your problem will be trajectory. The round will still have enough velocity out to 300 yards but actually hitting anything at that range is a different story.

 

[JohnnyFlake]

Hi,
I suppose it depends on what you mean by Effective Range. Since the 230gr is big and slow, it keeps its energy pretty well ( Hornady Balistic Calculator shows 319 ft/lbs and 790 dos at the muzzle and still 227 ft/lbs and 667fps at 250 yards). Your big problem is drop. With a 100 yard zero, you have 23" of drop at 150 yards and 63" at 200 yards. So even though the bullet has energy at the 259 yard mark I mentioned before, you have 121" of drop from your 100 yard zero.

For a man sized target, your 125yd seems about right, 100 yard zero gives you 7" high at 50 yards, 9.5" low at 125 yards. After that, it's dropping like a rock.

Demos

Yes, I am considering it as a self defense weapon. What your saying is probably more accurate than what I was thinking, but my thoughts were about 5" high at 50 yards, if zeroed to 100 yards and about 5" low at 125 yards.

 

[JohnnyFlake]

I saw a video on youtube about this that I thought was pretty good.
It's pretty long but I was surprised at the findings this guys test shows.
LINK

Thanks for the link!

I found it extremely interesting. It clearly shows that it will put down a human target at 300 yards and even much further. The big issue is being able to hit the target!

 

[nipprdog]

Yes, I am considering it as a self defense weapon.

Then, why ball ammo?

 

[Float Pilot]

The only 45 ACP chambered long gun I have fired extensively was a Navy stamped M1928 Thompson Sub-gun that belonged to the FBI in the Anchorage field office., I was able to hit standard silhouette targets at 100-125 yards with short bursts. That was using issue ball ammo.
Anything past that would have been pure luck.

 

[JohnnyFlake]

Then, why ball ammo?

In my 1911s, the first few rounds are Speer 230gn Gold Dots, for close up, after that, every thing is 230gn ball. I believe in and am very confident in Hard Ball Ammo! It will go through obstacles better than HPs or similar, it consistently goes deep and leaves a nice big hole.

 

[browningguy]

I shoot my HK USC at 100 yards all the time, easy to make accurate hits at that range.

 

[Reloadron]

Never would have given it 440 yards. I am a fan of .45 ACP and the video was pretty interesting. I shoot 44 Remington Magnum (240 gn JHP) in a Ruger 44 Carbine and was comfortable out to 100 yards deer hunting. Yeah, the video makes a good point in that we need to hit the target.

Ron

 

[Macchina]

I never really understood the 45 ACP as a carbine round. The 230gr round velocity tops out at about the length of a full size 1911 (max velocity at 6-7") and can actually decrease in velocity from rifle length barrels due to drag overcoming the low pressure of the round. Across the board of different rounds there is nothing that gains more than 100 FPS with ANY LENGTH BARREL BEYOND 4"!

I love what carbines do to other auto cartridges (9mm and .40) and own rifles for both .357 and .44 mag because they become true rifle rounds out of a long barrel, however the .45 ACP seems to stand out as a round that just doesn't benefit from a long barrel.

To top it off, the .45 ACP is naturally very slow and therefore also makes a poor long range (rainbow trajectory) round no matter what you shoot it from. Light weight .45 ACP rounds pick up only a bit of velocity but carry much lower energy and have very poor BC for any kind of distance shooting.

Check this out: http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45auto.html

 

[JohnnyFlake]

I never really understood the 45 ACP as a carbine round. The 230gr round velocity tops out at about the length of a full size 1911 (max velocity at 6-7") and can actually decrease in velocity from rifle length barrels due to drag overcoming the low pressure of the round. Across the board of different rounds there is nothing that gains more than 100 FPS with ANY LENGTH BARREL BEYOND 4"!

I love what carbines do to other auto cartridges (9mm and .40) and own rifles for both .357 and .44 mag because they become true rifle rounds out of a long barrel, however the .45 ACP seems to stand out as a round that just doesn't benefit from a long barrel.

To top it off, the .45 ACP is naturally very slow and therefore also makes a poor long range (rainbow trajectory) round no matter what you shoot it from. Light weight .45 ACP rounds pick up only a bit of velocity but carry much lower energy and have very poor BC for any kind of distance shooting.

Check this out: http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45auto.html

I have to disagree with what you say. I do not have a link available to support what I am going to say, but I have read many times in different articles, that the average velocity of a standard ball .45acp round from a standard 5" military 1911 is about 860fps. That same round tested out of 16" barrels (which may be a Thompson, not sure) will average 1025fps. +100/150fps means a lot when hitting your target with a 230gn bullet!

 

[jonnyc]

I have a .45 ACP carbine I built off an Enfield No.4. Accurate, fun rifle at 100 yds. I load .45 Super for it, so I would feel confident at 125-150.

 

[CapnMac]

Back when I first got my Marlin Camp45 a couple hundred years ago, I used to use B-20 targets at 100 yards, and hit them very reliably. Putting B-9 targets out at 200 yards looked about the same with irons or glass, so that was well within possibility.

Did take a bit of doping, to cope with the "rainbow" trajectory, but, do-able no sweat.

 

[DaisyCutter]

I'll take bench rest shots at a 3' gong at 300 yards. I even hit it sometimes. It's a total mortar lob though. The upshot is that the 45 will kick up some dust, so it is possible to kinda walk your rounds on target.

 

[DPris]

What carbine do you plan to use?
Denis

 

[nipprdog]

I have to disagree with what you say. I do not have a link available to support what I am going to say, but I have read many times in different articles, that the average velocity of a standard ball .45acp round from a standard 5" military 1911 is about 860fps. That same round tested out of 16" barrels (which may be a Thompson, not sure) will average 1025fps. +100/150fps means a lot when hitting your target with a 230gn bullet!

 

[rondog]

JMHO, but if you shoot at anyone in "self defense" farther than 20-25 feet away, you'd better have a GOOD reason.....

 

[C-grunt]

I never really understood the 45 ACP as a carbine round.

Pistol carbines were originally made for close range fighting. In this regard the 45 ACP is a great option. Id still prefer a good 9mm carbine were I forced to use a sub machinegun, but there is nothing wrong with a 45 ACP subgun.

 

[GRIZ22]

I have a 45,9, and 357 PCC. Primary use is SD. 45 zeroed at 75 yds, 9 and 357 at 100. Mid range trajectory is about 2 1/2 inches high for all. Can't see zeroing for farther distance with SD in mind. Allows for more accurate shooting at the ranges I contemplate.

 

[kBob]

If you know the range, the lyman sights on a Thompson M1928 series gun work very well with ball ammo.

You do have to know the range and set the sights. I have used a 1928 Thompson on semi from a good prone or supported rest with the horizontal fore grip in the left palm to 200 meters. In that case a man sized target not moving would be no problem. Clanging a 55 gallon oil drum repeatedly at that range in front of "unbelievers" is fun squared.

I would bet that if you had one of the enfield based kits with either style of receiver or sights that you could work up sight settings that would be very bothersome to folks all the way out to 300.

A low power setting on a scope with mildots might make a Camp .45 sort of scary to out yonder ways a bit.

There is a current thread on THR about choosing a single caliber. The person that depends on a .45ACP hand gun for PD might get some mileage out of a .45 carbine for sub 100 yard hunting and plinking beyond.

Not everyone wants an AR, FAL or even .300 H&R Mag bolt gun.

-kBob

 

[boom boom]

Heavy and slow bullets (slow compared to today) were common in the black powder era and carried over into the early smokeless era.

Modern bullet designs did not exist so bullets succeeded in killing power through momentum yielding deep penetration and large diameter holes rather than sophisticated designs high velocity hollow points. Just remember, that over penetration could be a problem with ball type ammo in a carbine as it certainly can be in a 1911.

Don't really know how reliably .45 ACP carbines feed modern hollowpoints nor do I know what such bullet coefficients might be compared with ball ammo. I also do not know whether they would feed SWC lead bullets reliably either.

However, pistol carbines have relatively light recoil compared with other alternatives and during the AWB were more available as well.

 

[JohnnyFlake]

That's interesting. I will assume that there are many test charts out there offering similar data. Anyway, the point is that it does increase the velocity and say what you will a plus of 100fps with a 230gn bullets means something!

 

[JohnnyFlake]

What carbine do you plan to use?
Denis

I am looking at the Hi Point. It gets some bad raps from the usual gun snob suspects, but it's actually a nice gun and reliable. Also looking at the JR (Just Right) which is very nice, reliable and uses Glock Magazines. The JR cost about twice as much as the Hi Point!