.45acp Carbine - Effective Range?

[Llama Bob]

I've never figured out what the role of most of these pistol caliber carbines is. The size is comparable to rifle caliber carbines, the terminal performance sucks compared to any of a number of centerfire rifle rounds, and due to the rainbow trajectories the reach is very limited and hitting targets at long-ish unknown distance is probably not feasible under stress, in bad lighting, etc.

In comparison, even the anemic .30 carbine starts looking pretty good. And an M4 looks incredible - moreso shooting .300 BLK.

 

[DPris]

There are better choices for SD, but at least you're not trying to use a semi-Thompson.
Denis

 

[Navy_Guns]

My Olympic .45 upper has iron sights set for 50 yards and it's very effective. My bolt-action rifle has a scope and will shoot hand loads that drive 230 grain bullets at 1,600 fps and 185 grain Gold Dots at 1,850 fps. I don't recommend those in a Hi-Point despite their warranty!

FWIW - don't shoot anyone in defense at 125 yards unless your last name is Clinton...

 

[Reloadron]

I am looking at the Hi Point. It gets some bad raps from the usual gun snob suspects, but it's actually a nice gun and reliable. Also looking at the JR (Just Right) which is very nice, reliable and uses Glock Magazines. The JR cost about twice as much as the Hi Point!

The Hi Point guns always get a bad rap. They are cheap unless we prefer inexpensive? My brother has a Hi Poing chambered in .40 S&W and that rifle is a blast to shoot. The rifle while inexpensive is reliable, it just keeps shooting and delivers really good accuracy. That plus made in Ohio keeps Ohioians busy working. They really are a very good little rifle. Every time we are out with that rifle it is simply a fun and reliable rifle to shoot making for a nice time.

Ron

 

[Reloadron]

I've never figured out what the role of most of these pistol caliber carbines is. The size is comparable to rifle caliber carbines, the terminal performance sucks compared to any of a number of centerfire rifle rounds, and due to the rainbow trajectories the reach is very limited and hitting targets at long-ish unknown distance is probably not feasible under stress, in bad lighting, etc.

In comparison, even the anemic .30 carbine starts looking pretty good. And an M4 looks incredible - moreso shooting .300 BLK.

The rifle in the foreground is a Ruger 44 Carbine.



That rifle was my favorite West Virginia hunting rifle. My shots seldom if ever exceeded 100 yards in heavy brush. While I have no shortage of hunting rifles that rifle and later a 444 Marlin were just the perfect guns for West Virginia hunting. The rifle is short as can be seen beside a Ruger 10/22 making it very handy to easily come up on target. Using 240 grain bullets small twigs were not about to deflect shots. The rifle just plain worked and worked well within its limitations.

So while the handgun caliber rifles can be quite a bit of fun to simply shoot there are many that make up close and personal hunting rifles. While not a great plains hunting long distance rifle they fill a useful niche in many hunting applications. Also in many states like Ohio and Indiana which have opened hunting to straight walled handgun cartridges in rifles they fill a void. You just use them within their limitations.

Ron

 

[Llama Bob]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I get the point of carbines in magnum pistol rounds that in effect are in the same ballistic class as light rifle rounds. I own a .44mag model 92 myself and would hunt it in tight terrain - well, would hunt it once I get the sights squared away. It's not really shootable yet but it will be.

It's 9mm/45acp/40s&w tactical carbines I don't get. It seems like in every case where I might want one, I'd rather have an off the rack 14.5" or 16" AR with a red dot, let alone any number of more CQB-tuned rifle cartridge carbines.

 

[stiab]

...velocity tops out at about the length of a full size 1911...

I respectfully disagree, based on my actual testing. Am traveling now and don't have the stats with me, but tested many factory loads and a couple reloads, and improvement varied up to about 250 fps, IIRC. Slower burning powder and lighter bullets got the better increase. Performance will definitely improve from the carbine. If this thread is still alive when I get home I'll post actual results, which I considered impressive.

 

[Sunray]

Even 20-25 feet away is pushing it. However, as an academic exercise go here for long barrel .45 ACP velocities. 16" barrels produce a bit more than 1025 fps, but it depends on the load.
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45auto2.html
"...never figured out what the role..." Big kid's toys. They'd be SMG's if it weren't for government interference. "Tactical" is a marketing term.

 

[JohnnyFlake]

I respectfully disagree, based on my actual testing. Am traveling now and don't have the stats with me, but tested many factory loads and a couple reloads, and improvement varied up to about 250 fps, IIRC. Slower burning powder and lighter bullets got the better increase. Performance will definitely improve from the carbine. If this thread is still alive when I get home I'll post actual results, which I considered impressive.

I hope you do, as I personally would like to see what you have. I am thinking that I would load up some +P .45acp loads for use in the Carbine. I do not think it will take very much to crack 1000fps out of a 16"/18" barrel.

 

[Milt1]

There may be a manufacturer out there that makes a carbine for the .45 Colt round. I'm fairly sure that Henry makes a rifle like this in their lever line-up but it may not be in a carbine configuration? I think in most instances that you can fire the .45 ACP in carbines, rifles or handguns chambered for the .45 Colt. I'd buy the .45 Colt carbine which would give you two options in one gun and you can then test each caliber to your heart's content!

 

[Teachu2]

I went to the trouble to get a HiPoint 4595 with a bullet button shipped to CA. It was 100% reliable with ball ammo, and that's all I tried. It was combat accurate. It was mostly a novelty. It did not do anything as well as a basic AR-15, except shoot .45acp. My brother-in-law really liked it, so now it's his. The M&P Sport works better for me.

 

[Llama Bob]

It was mostly a novelty. It did not do anything as well as a basic AR-15, except shoot .45acp.

That's pretty much my point. These seem to be a strictly inferior weapon for all applications where you're shooting at people or animals (or training to do the same).

 

[DPris]

It ain't snobbery, but I would not bet my life on a H-Point.
If you would, it's your life.
Denis

 

[CraigC]

These seem to be a strictly inferior weapon for all applications where you're shooting at people or animals (or training to do the same).

Ballistics aren't the only consideration. I just wish we could have a discussion ABOUT them without having to defend their viability.

 

[Desert Dog]

I have a JR Carbine chambered in .45 ACP that I routinely shoot handloaded .45 Super out of. A 230 grain Sierra Power jacket leaves the muzzle at 1550 FPS, and I can nail targets at 100, 150, and 200 yards routinely.

This is one of my favorite long guns to shoot as there is zero recoil, and it hits pretty hard at 100 yards. I have fold down iron sights and a Burris red dot on it.

It lives next to my night stand with a 25 round magazine of these Supers in it waiting.

The gun is well worth its price and the quality is as good as it gets.

 

[JohnnyFlake]

I have a JR Carbine chambered in .45 ACP that I routinely shoot handloaded .45 Super out of. A 230 grain Sierra Power jacket leaves the muzzle at 1550 FPS, and I can nail targets at 100, 150, and 200 yards routinely.

This is one of my favorite long guns to shoot as there is zero recoil, and it hits pretty hard at 100 yards. I have fold down iron sights and a Burris red dot on it.

It lives next to my night stand with a 25 round magazine of these Supers in it waiting.

The gun is well worth its price and the quality is as good as it gets.

I have heard of the .45acp Super several times, but I have no real knowledge about it. Can you give some info/recipes you like. I have 500 New Starline Brass .45acp Cases Marked +P that I purchased a few years back.

That type of load would make a true difference in a carbine style weapon.

 

[Desert Dog]

.45 Super was a thing about 15 years ago. Starline still makes .45 Super head stamped brass. I have never tried loading +P brass, and have only used new Super brass, so I could not tell you if they are strong enough. SAAMI specs for .45 Super is 28,000 psi.

The powders I use for .45 Super are: AA#7, AA#9, and Ramshot Enforcer. I am not comfortable listing my hand load recipes on here, but the Real Guns website did an extensive test on the caliber.

http://www.realguns.com/archives/090.htm

Dean Grennell was instrumental in the creation of this cartridge. Here is some wiki wisdom:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_Super

I just know that my test mule for all my workups, a Ruger Blackhawk convertible, digested them with no muss of fuss, and the JR is the same.

Good luck, and be careful.

DD

 

[CoalTrain49]

PCC's can amaze you. I don't own a 45 ACP carbine but I can ring a plate at 220 yards with a 357. Of course I'm right around 1500 fps but still I would bet you could do the same thing with plus P. Carbines have some room when it comes to hotter loads.

 

[rondog]

I think in most instances that you can fire the .45 ACP in carbines, rifles or handguns chambered for the .45 Colt. I'd buy the .45 Colt carbine which would give you two options in one gun and you can then test each caliber to your heart's content!

No, no No NO NO NO!!!!! They are NOT the same or usable in the same gun! Forget such foolishness and shame on you for recommending it to others! Totally different, except for the bullet diameter, and I ain't so damn sure THAT'S the same either.

You can, however, fire .45 Colt in a single-shot break action .410 shotgun. But .45acp is a different animal, much shorter and rimless for starters.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I never really understood the 45 ACP as a carbine round. The 230gr round velocity tops out at about the length of a full size 1911 (max velocity at 6-7") and can actually decrease in velocity from rifle length barrels due to drag overcoming the low pressure of the round. Across the board of different rounds there is nothing that gains more than 100 FPS with ANY LENGTH BARREL BEYOND 4"!

After reading in one of the gun rags about this, we did some tests with a 16" carbine and found that we could get 1600 fps out of a 165 gr. +P defensive round, which was several hundred feet faster than out of a pistol.

JMHO, but if you shoot at anyone in "self defense" farther than 20-25 feet away, you'd better have a GOOD reason.....

Surely you are not meaning to imply that you don't need a good reason to shoot somebody in self defense inside of 20-25 feet, right?

The same standards apply for self defense inside 20-25 feet as they do beyond 20-25 feet (intent, opportunity, and ability).

 

[Llama Bob]

Ballistics aren't the only consideration. I just wish we could have a discussion ABOUT them without having to defend their viability.

As long as that discussion doesn't imply they're useful for something, you can go right ahead. Talk about the phosphate phinish, the plastic furniture, the cheap high point "quality" to your heart's content. But as soon as someone suggests using them for defense or hunting, facts will have to come into the matter.

 

[HankB]

I've used a friend's iron-sighted M1927 Thompson (Semi-auto, 16" barrel) to ring 12" gongs at 100 yards quite easily, shot after shot, offhand.

Some years ago, a guy in the local IDPA club used a MechTech CCU in .45 ACP to take a whitetail doe with one shot at about 140 yards - it worked just fine for that. I "think" he said the load was a Winchester 230 Grain +P SXT.

Sight was some kind of red dot. No idea what kind of 1911 frame he used as the base.

I suspect for trajectory, shot placement, and terminal effect he was near the end of the CCU's useful hunting range, though the bullet would certainly carry much, much farther.

 

[ghitch75]

if you have a 1911 a Mech Tech in the way to go......i have had one for 6 years now and it is very fun to shoot.......i have nailed coons and coyotes out to 100 yards with 185gr semi wadcutters and not a one had anything to say about it.......it makes a nasty thump sound when it hits them.....

i have it zeroed and 100 and it drops about a foot at 150 but still does the trick....

 

[agtman]

You get waay more "reach out & touch whatever" with the M1 Garand. Save the .45acp for the 1911.

 

[Tirod]

I would consider this: if a pistol caliber carbine seems to be viable, then why not a rifle caliber pistol?

An AR pistol in 5.56 still gets 1,000 foot pounds of force out to 80m and calculating bullet drop out past 250 is almost non existent. It starts from the muzzle with over 2,600 fps.

If ethical hunting standards are 1,000 foot pounds of force I don't see where most pistols qualify - but I do enjoy taking my AR pistol for the extra season and having not only extended range with flat shooting but also a lot more power to reduce wounding and losing game.

If 200+ foot pounds of force at 200m sounds effective then that is the real issue - ballistic reach is about what amount of power you can deliver to that point. Live targets at 200m and beyond are much less likely to "go down" with 25% of the necessary force applied, and in combat terms, it's not necessarily going to stop someone. Add in the amount of bullet drop compared to being able to shoot point blank with a rifle caliber and for me the choice is made. I'll take the rifle caliber pistol every day.

It's shorter, under 26" if you build it right, and delivers substantially more power. Power is why we use guns, not convenient commonality with short range pistols. I'm buying a 4.25" .45ACP this week but I have no delusions it can ever perform to the same level as my 5.56 pistol, regardless of what barrel length I might put on it.