45acp reloads not extracting

[Goofball84]

This may be a gun question. But it is for sure related to my handloads. The picture attached is not mine, but looks identical to what I am experiencing.

First. It is a Llama heavy frame IX-A 45acp. I bought it used. It is a finicky gun. With factory loads, it 100% will not feed any ammo unless its brass case. It would stick the nose of the round into the top of the chamber every time. But brass ammo feeds and cycles fine.

I loaded up some 230gr Berrys RN, Promo (reddot) powder, clean random head stamp once-fire range brass. 1.26" COL +/- 0.005. I mic'd everything and its all identical handloads vs factory loads (federal 230gr). I did plunk test and everything works as it should.

I started with a clip of factory rounds. Average velocity was 794. Gun cycled fine.

Next was 4.0gr handloads. Average velocity was 693. First round fed fine. After firing it, I had fail to extract as in the picture. Drop the mag (had to pull some tension off the slide to so it would drop). Then lock the slide open, tip the gun up and the spent case would drop out of the chamber. Insert the mag and continued to repeat the failure every time. Except the last round with empty clip, would extract and eject normal and lock the slide.

Next was 4.2gr handloads. Average velocity was 727. same as above except I kept the last round to take back and measure for OAl to see if bullet was moving.

Next was 4.5gr handloads. Average velocity was 796. same as above except I kept the last round to take back and measure for OAl to see if bullet was moving.

Next was 4.8gr handloads. Average velocity was 866. same as above except I kept the last round to take back and measure for OAl to see if bullet was moving.

I tried old OEM mag, and a newer Mccormick shooting star mag. Both had the same results.
I checked the extractor (Llama uses a single solid extractor that operates on a hinge pin) and the extractor tip is there and not broken. It also seems to have plenty of tension when trying to move it by hand.

The question is why do factory rounds cycle fine and handloads do not? The velocities and power factors of the handloads range from below to above that of the factory loads.

If there are rounds in the mag, I have 100% failure to extract on the reloads. and 100% success with factory rounds.

 

[The Bushmaster]

Oh...Is that ever familiar. My Firestar M43 was doing just that a few years ago. What I found out is that I wasn't removing the flare enough. You need to do a mild crimp. The case head that is not extracting is catching on the case mouth of the next in line in the magazine causing the extractor to jump out of the groove before the case can contact the ejector. Experiment with crimping until the problem goes away.

 

[Goofball84]

Thank you. I think you are on to something. All the searching I did, all i found was do a plunk test, make sure the case fits the chamber. Or adjust the tension in your extractor(s).

On the mic I found my loads are 0.005" bigger on the lip than factory. Finger nail test feels slightly more grab on reloads than the factory. I adjust my lee factory crimp down another turn and it feels and measure better on the lip.

Later when the rain stops I'll go out back and try out the re-tapered rounds. But I have a feeling this it.

I did order a new extractor, spring, and pin anyway. The gun is worn a little and I have no idea how many rounds have been through it. so I'll freshen it up with some new parts/springs.

 

[illinoisburt]

I'll second the taper. Maybe not so much the crimp, but the whole case. It should be straight walled, but I often see people's reloads looking a little reverse tapered with a swell towards the case mouth. I'd hazard if you ran those all the way through the dreaded Lee FCD to 'right size' the loaded case the problem may disappear.

 

[The Bushmaster]

My dies for .45, 9mmX19 and .380 are all Lee dies. All are tapper crimp dies.

The plunk test is important only to insure that you didn't over crimp the case mouth in this particular case. All of my 9mmX19 cases pasted the plunk test but still didn't extract properly until I increased the tapper crimp. They still pass the plunk test, but extract and eject without incident. In fact the M43 Firestar ejects fired cases all over the place which is another problem (finding them).

 

[Redranger]

I use a Wilson case gage to check finished rounds. If it doesn't fall in and out of the gage freely I add more taper crimp. Works perfectly for me.

 

[Blue68f100]

I would look at tuning the extractor first. What you are seeing is the extractor not handling the spent round. How is the gun throwing the brass? All in a small pile or scattered, falling at your feet?

 

[Goofball84]

I would look at tuning the extractor first. What you are seeing is the extractor not handling the spent round. How is the gun throwing the brass? All in a small pile or scattered, falling at your feet?

The factory rounds are being ejected 6-10' away.
Factory rounds feed, fire, cycle, eject good. My handloads 100% fail to extract. Unless the mag is empty, then they extract and eject fine.

 

[Goofball84]

Ok update. I just loaded up a mag with the rest of my handloads, after adjusting the taper. Emptied the mag without a hitch.

So as The Bushmaster above pointed out, the problem was the rim of the spent casing being extracted was catching on the next round in the mag, on the lip of the case causing the extractor to loose grip and leave spent brass partially in the chamber.

Seeing as how factory rounds were fine and my loads were having the issue, it kind of pointed to the rounds as the issue and not so much the gun.

Thanks for the help.

 

[Klaatu Barada Nikto]

Do you feel like your belling is excessive or just enough?
45 Auto is kinda quirky that way. Not enough and the round wants to fall over as it's heading into the seating die.
Too much and the case wants to rip down the side going into the seating die.
Personally I always bell just enough to keep the round from falling over and then check my crimp die to make sure I'm close to .472 (.452 + .010 x 2).
Also, even with carbide dies I always lube 45 Auto just because the brass is so dang thin.
Then crank out 1k rounds (230g RN, 5.2 Win 231, COL 1.23 @ 810FPS) and they all cycle fine.

 

[Goofball84]

Honestly I'm still learning. Running some test cycle on the press I adjusted the dies until the bullet would stand straight. The dies are mostly setup as instructed by LEE. These were the first rounds I've run of the loadmaster press.