dturner1993
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- Mar 24, 2011
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LOL at "whats for dinner"..nice
4th Circuit: Concealed carry permit not justification for no-knock raid
- Thread starter hirundo82
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hermannr
Member
peavy, I see no, none, ever, reason for a "no-knock-warrent" I really do not give a D#$ if they flush evidence down the toilet, in the US this should NEVER happen, EVER!!!!!
The US is not Germany in 1939-1944, or Russia under Stalin. Why do you think Germany in the 30's and Russia under Stalin confescated all the firearms, except for a few special people???? so they could do things like this with impunity is why.
I am not saying the LEO's should not be prepared if there is some very well founded suspicion that the person my be armed and dangereous, but I can never condone breaking and entering just because the LEO's have a warrent to search for something. The law is not above the law here in the US.
That it is done every day does not make it right.
The US is not Germany in 1939-1944, or Russia under Stalin. Why do you think Germany in the 30's and Russia under Stalin confescated all the firearms, except for a few special people???? so they could do things like this with impunity is why.
I am not saying the LEO's should not be prepared if there is some very well founded suspicion that the person my be armed and dangereous, but I can never condone breaking and entering just because the LEO's have a warrent to search for something. The law is not above the law here in the US.
That it is done every day does not make it right.
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Gouranga
Member
First while not all CCW's are good guys...all of us have reasonably clean criminal records to get our CCWs to being with. Using it as a reason for a no-knock is absolutely ridiculous. Given the instances (and there are many) of no-knock raids being conducted on the wrong house, with bad intelligence, and in a number of cases with injuries and fatalities to completely innocent people, I cannot understand how they are not illegal.
The cops who authorized this raid should be charged.
The cops who authorized this raid should be charged.
Ok first off how about not comparing our country with that of Nazi Germany? Last time I checked the Gestapo didn't bother to gather evidence and present it to a judge to get a warrant prior to busting down doors and hauling people off never to be seen again. Throwing out statements such as that do not serve to make your assertions look educated and worthwhile.
Secondly, in case you hadn't noticed law enforcement officers are being shot and killed at a record pace this year, many of them while serving warrants. If there is a reason to believe a suspect may be armed and dangerous it is ridiculous to give them a warning that you are coming and let them prepare to fight you off before you make entry.
Again I see this ridiculous statement of "the law is not above the law" nonsense. Police raids and warrant services are done in ACCORDANCE with the laws and judicial rulings in place. Just as people who aren't doctors can't practice medicine or write prescriptions does that make doctors "above the law"? Or how about regular people who aren't allowed to practice law without a law degree and passing the bar exam. Are lawyers "above the law"?
Third, even warrants that are not the dreaded "no knock" type most often lead to breaching the residence and making forced entry. All LE is mandated to do is knock and announce their presence and if the door is not opened then we break it down.
I take it you like living in a civilized society where you can feel safe walking outside of your house because the rule of law keeps things in check. If you don't then by all means petition the government to abolish itself and live in anarchy, but until then police raids are necessary and those of us that put our lives on the line every day to make it a safe world for you will use all means at our disposal to get the job done safely and effectively.
As a side note, it's actually store policy at Wal Mart for whoever happens to be in the photo shop area to glance over all the pictures on a computer screen for nudity or images that could be under a copyright before handing the prints out.
I would never take anything I'd wanted kept private to a photo lab for printing
I would never take anything I'd wanted kept private to a photo lab for printing
hermannr
Member
May I add, in Spokane (city and county) innocent civilians are being shot by cops at an alarming rate, I do not think that there is any justification for a no-knock-entry.
In particular, a 72 year old Baptist preacher, on his own property, with a holstered revolver....
BTW: I didn't read anything about the OP LEOs obtaining a no-knock-warrent or doing any prior investigation either. They just thought they would excercise their new "training" on these poor innocent people.
In particular, a 72 year old Baptist preacher, on his own property, with a holstered revolver....
BTW: I didn't read anything about the OP LEOs obtaining a no-knock-warrent or doing any prior investigation either. They just thought they would excercise their new "training" on these poor innocent people.
Well you can think that all you want but thankfully the people who make those decisions actually have some real life experience on the issue. Never ceases to amaze me how a lot of people who never spent a day working in law enforcement always seem to know how we can do it so much better.
Nice deflection, but you made a blanket statement about no knock raids in your initial post. I already stated it sounded like this raid was not a good idea based on the information that we have been presented with.
Gouranga
Member
Dbl0Kevin, I have a couple close family members in law enforcement. Their safety on duty is of paramount concern to me. That being said, we cannot and should not allow our rights to be obliterated for officer safety.
As an officer, your superior or fellow officer may be given the wrong address or bad info by a informant who himself is not exactly the cleanest person (legally speaking) in the world or brightest. So you already have potentially suspect information. It still may be right and I would bet the majority of time it is.
However, consider the OP's story. These people committed no crime. Never. Not once. 1 person at a Walmart said they thought they say child porn. Based on that police storm their home with w no-knock raid. It was blind luck that nobody there was armed and shooting at police.
I have 4 daughters to take care of. This scene plays out in my home, multiple people bust in armed, no idea how they are, I am firing at them to protect my family and probably getting blown away. I would have committed no crime EVER. The cops will walk away clean, maybe a minor mark on their record and my kids grow up without a father.
So when you look at that, how can you expect any citizen to be kosher with these types of raids? They can and do get pushed on innocent people. In NC/SC alone I looked back the last 10 years and found a dozen or so, with 2 resulting in the DEATH of a citizen protecting themselves from multiple unarmed assailants who turned out to be police.
Get rid of the cops, heck no, we need ya around and aside from crud like the OPs article I can say I am glad and appreciative of the job you do. These raids, though are dumb. Unless there is ample evidence of a crime in progress that endangers innocent lives, they should not happen. What would the harm have been in keeping the home under surveillance and waiting till they ventured outside the home to apprehend them and serve a warrant?
Seems to me it would be safer for the officers, safer for citizens, and all around a better way of doing this type of thing.
As an officer, your superior or fellow officer may be given the wrong address or bad info by a informant who himself is not exactly the cleanest person (legally speaking) in the world or brightest. So you already have potentially suspect information. It still may be right and I would bet the majority of time it is.
However, consider the OP's story. These people committed no crime. Never. Not once. 1 person at a Walmart said they thought they say child porn. Based on that police storm their home with w no-knock raid. It was blind luck that nobody there was armed and shooting at police.
I have 4 daughters to take care of. This scene plays out in my home, multiple people bust in armed, no idea how they are, I am firing at them to protect my family and probably getting blown away. I would have committed no crime EVER. The cops will walk away clean, maybe a minor mark on their record and my kids grow up without a father.
So when you look at that, how can you expect any citizen to be kosher with these types of raids? They can and do get pushed on innocent people. In NC/SC alone I looked back the last 10 years and found a dozen or so, with 2 resulting in the DEATH of a citizen protecting themselves from multiple unarmed assailants who turned out to be police.
Get rid of the cops, heck no, we need ya around and aside from crud like the OPs article I can say I am glad and appreciative of the job you do. These raids, though are dumb. Unless there is ample evidence of a crime in progress that endangers innocent lives, they should not happen. What would the harm have been in keeping the home under surveillance and waiting till they ventured outside the home to apprehend them and serve a warrant?
Seems to me it would be safer for the officers, safer for citizens, and all around a better way of doing this type of thing.
leadcounsel
member
I'm fully against no-knock raids. Too violent and dangerous and a slippery slope for complete military state marshal law society. I can envision no scenarios where it's necessary. What about a knock warrant and seige?
RobNDenver
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- 275
Please define "numerous". Your overgeneralization makes me wonder just how fair minded you are. I put in 30 years and rarely, read almost never, ran into anyone with a Concealed Carry permit that was engaged in criminal conduct. Just didn't happen. I am shocked and surprised that your experiences are so different than mine.
hermannr
Member
Dbl0Kevin, We do not live in a police state, and I am very happy I live in a county that keeps that in mind and treats the residents as citizens of a free country. There is no problem in Okanogan county.
There is a big problem in Spokane Co. 7 dead from police shooting a civilian this year..4 are being questioned, and three were obviously justified as the LEO's were being shot at. In one of those 4 that are/were "under investigation" the officer involved is being sued by the estate of the deceased. The City of Spokane did not charge the officer because there was "not enough evidence", but there was enough evidence for a civil suit. (like with OJS) That is the aformentioned 72 year old Baptist pastor.
A few years ago in Mt Vernon, WA, an automobile hit a dog, right in front of the county court house. One of the people that stopped was a licensed Veternarian, and she went to attend to the injured dog. A Mt Vernon LEO came to investigate the accident told the woman to leave, she was in his way. She did not comply but continued to attend to the injured dog. She informed this LEO that she was a vet and the dog needed immeadiate attention. Well that LEO grabbed that young lady by the arm so hard he broke it, and even though he broke her arm he put her in cuffs and dragged her out of the street. "Das Ich" that is his Ego, ruined his career.
Guess who no longer has a job? Guess who had to pay some very large bucks to settle with the lady Vet?? Jack booted thugs that wear a uniform are still just that, jack boot thugs. You know when all this kind of stuff started? Ya, when they required anyone hired as police officers to complete the state police academy. It's the "authority" and "special exclusive club" syndrome. Not just anyone can complete the academy.
From what you have written, I am assuming you are a LEO, and thank you for respecting those citizens that you have swarn to protect. Just remember, just because you have a badge, does not put you above the law.
Again: If I cannot break into another persons a house, you cannot either. I will guarantee, if anyone burst into my bedroom in the middle of the night (assuming he got past my Dobermann), I would not ask questions, I would start unloading my 12 ga riot gun. And if whoever broke into my house shot my Dobermann, I would show no mercy....
I am a law abiding citizen, I had a top secret clearance when I was in the military, there is no reason, nor has there ever been a reason, for anyone to be bursting into my bedroom in the middle of the night like they did to the family in this OP.
May I add, I am a Vietnam Vet (Tet '68 Hue), I know what it is like to be shot at, and I also know how to control panic when shot at.
There is a big problem in Spokane Co. 7 dead from police shooting a civilian this year..4 are being questioned, and three were obviously justified as the LEO's were being shot at. In one of those 4 that are/were "under investigation" the officer involved is being sued by the estate of the deceased. The City of Spokane did not charge the officer because there was "not enough evidence", but there was enough evidence for a civil suit. (like with OJS) That is the aformentioned 72 year old Baptist pastor.
A few years ago in Mt Vernon, WA, an automobile hit a dog, right in front of the county court house. One of the people that stopped was a licensed Veternarian, and she went to attend to the injured dog. A Mt Vernon LEO came to investigate the accident told the woman to leave, she was in his way. She did not comply but continued to attend to the injured dog. She informed this LEO that she was a vet and the dog needed immeadiate attention. Well that LEO grabbed that young lady by the arm so hard he broke it, and even though he broke her arm he put her in cuffs and dragged her out of the street. "Das Ich" that is his Ego, ruined his career.
Guess who no longer has a job? Guess who had to pay some very large bucks to settle with the lady Vet?? Jack booted thugs that wear a uniform are still just that, jack boot thugs. You know when all this kind of stuff started? Ya, when they required anyone hired as police officers to complete the state police academy. It's the "authority" and "special exclusive club" syndrome. Not just anyone can complete the academy.
From what you have written, I am assuming you are a LEO, and thank you for respecting those citizens that you have swarn to protect. Just remember, just because you have a badge, does not put you above the law.
Again: If I cannot break into another persons a house, you cannot either. I will guarantee, if anyone burst into my bedroom in the middle of the night (assuming he got past my Dobermann), I would not ask questions, I would start unloading my 12 ga riot gun. And if whoever broke into my house shot my Dobermann, I would show no mercy....
I am a law abiding citizen, I had a top secret clearance when I was in the military, there is no reason, nor has there ever been a reason, for anyone to be bursting into my bedroom in the middle of the night like they did to the family in this OP.
May I add, I am a Vietnam Vet (Tet '68 Hue), I know what it is like to be shot at, and I also know how to control panic when shot at.
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This was fated to be closed because there was never any chance that folks would limit the discussion just to the OP's topic.
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