Shaq and SWAT raid wrong house...

[beerslurpy]

Some of them become extremely violent when LE comes to serve warrants.

A lot of people become violent when armed men kick in their doors at 3 in the morning. A cop in Florida, of all places, should know stuff like this. This has little do with whether or not the homeowner has broken any laws. If someone kicked in my door in the middle of the night, I certainly hope I would be able to offer them some violence.

What kind of normal person expects that the man with the gun in your house is a police officer in a ninja suit rather than an ordinary violent criminal? Who tries to listen to the words he is yelling as he breaks into your house with a drawn gun? What if he isnt even yelling anything?

This high-risk technique of performing search warrants needs to be stopped. Legislatively, judicially, I dont really care how. It's leading us down a bad path and its a tool for the use of future tyrants.

 

[stlgunfan]

I WOULD NEVER live in IL. Blagob*tch and Daley are war against the gun owners. ISP and chitcago PD have something called "CAGE" unit going to peoples doors in tactical gear to take away their guns. Like a 80 yr old they went in with all the gear on to take his gun away. They have all the records of every multiple gun purchase since 1992 of everyone in the USA! IL is a police state. A dictatorship

The military style approach to law enforcement was discused with me by my twentynine year old son who is a graduate of Illinois University at Normal with a bachelor degree in criminal justice plus four years in the military. He decided not to be a police officer after experiencing first hand some of this military style approach to law enforcement and the wrong address syndrom that is use as reasoning to terrorize people.Fortunately for all concerned he was recognized by one of the entry team members and this led to the discovery that they were at the wrong address, a 107 street address was transposed as a 701. The officers involved appologized and helped to clean up the slight mess they made, the upper level officers did not seem the least bit concerned about the possibility that someone could have been injured or killed, after all they were just doing there job....After all they no longer have to act directly with the people and depend on them for assistance when things go wrong...They are only concerned with advancement(not all) and are politically motivated to please there totalitarian masters

 

[Handgun Midas]

I believe No-Knock Mistakes are some of the scariest $&!% in the US right now

SWAT's mistakes have in the past, and will continue in the future, taken innocent lives.
I thought that was something that LEOs profess to prevent.

And those responsible don't seem to care, and are not being held accountable.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

It was the Internet company’s mistake, he said.

No, it was the fault of a system which has become unhinged from the Constitution which is supposed to prevent the government from doing this to ANYONE, period. If they suspect that kids are being victimized, they need to knock on the door, present their warrant, walk in and do their search. Two men in business attire, backed up by one normal uniformed unit would be more than sufficient, but these guys think everything needs to be a military style operation. I guess just knocking, presenting warrants and searching is not exciting enough for these hotdogs anymore.

“The sheriff’s department does regret that Mr. Nuckols and his family had to go through this, however we were operating under the scope of what we were supposed to do,” he said.

Yeah, and that's exactly the problem. Cops should not be authorized to behave like this PERIOD when dealing with someone accused by the government of a crime. Unless there is some kind of violence against them, they are supposed to treat every accused individual like an innocent party, wrongly accused. That's the system the Founders envisioned, and we need to get back to it. It is the only system consistent with liberty.

 

[jeepmor]

Yes, they should pay

Why is it that, as citizens, we are accountable and held to our actions to the highest degree. Yet, our law enforcement does not have to live up the same standard? I live in Portland, OR area and there have been 3 cases of what would very easily be classified excessive force in less than two months. All three perps were killed. When two or three police officers cannot stop a perp without shooting or kililng him, they should be replaced. The protect and serve motto has been poorly represented of late in this area.

Police jumping to guns for resolution is not working. People are losing family members because the police are overzealous and out for blood. I can't comment on any of these cases directly as I've only read the paper, but all three clearly could have been handled differently and the police outnumbered the perps in every case. In at least two cases, the perps were not armed with firearms. And I don't think any of the perps, besides one, really had a deathwish and simply refused to be taken alive.

I think police forces nationwide are gearing up for some fascist type actions in the coming future. We're getting closer every day.


jeepmor

 

[cbsbyte]

This is another reason to ban the use of SWAT teams in most non critical cases. Personally I feel only large cities should be allowed to have Special tactical teams for emergency use only, not for normal raids. If we don't stand up against the over use of these teams then it might become such a problem that we will not be able to do anything about it later.

 

[qlajlu]

Out of control

Pornography, especially child-pornography, is despicable, but it is still considered a non-violent crime. Serving a search warrant in a non-violent investigation should not be done under military, war-like conditions. At least not in the first instance. If an address comes under scrutiny and it is known to house a violent offender because of previous contacts, then having a SWAT team standing by would be warranted.

Every one of us here at THR have read about and/or been involved in discussions of home defense. At 2 o'clock am what is the difference to a home owner whether the "intruder" is a combat-hardened SWAT team or a local gang of outlaws doing a home invasion robbery? We all train, mentally at least, to repel an illegal intrusion into "our castle" but now that becomes a catch 22 situation. Home invasion participants have been known to shout, "POLICE" when kicking in the door, too, because of the proliferation of SWAT entry on so many different circumstances. It has given them, the bad guys, the perfect cover.

My worst fear is that I will be facing a errant "legal" entry team instead of some hoodlums. A well trained entry team will not hesitate to take my life when they see the 1911 in my hand where as the gang members will probably flee.

This situation is getting out of control and there is going to be an awful lot of collateral damage and loss of innocent life if there is not a cap placed on it. As badly as I hate to call for more laws, perhaps now is the time to take a look at putting rules on the use of SWAT.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

qlajlu, well said. My sentiments exactly. The whole SWAT concept came from a perceived need to occasionally deal with known armed murderers, such as a hot pursuit of bank robbers into a building. This has met with a major case of mission creep into using SWAT type teams for serving search warrants on those suspected by the government of an Internet crime. I think this whole situation is quickly approaching critical mass.

 

[pcosmar]

This is something I ran across. It may be worth something to someone.

Your Right of Defense Against Unlawful Arrest

“Citizens may resist unlawful arrest to the point of taking an arresting
officer's life if necessary.” Plummer v. State, 136 Ind. 306. This
premise was upheld by the Supreme Court of the United States in the
case: John Bad Elk v. U.S., 177 U.S. 529. The Court stated: “Where the
officer is killed in the course of the disorder which naturally
accompanies an attempted arrest that is resisted, the law looks with
very different eyes upon the transaction, when the officer had the right
to make the arrest, from what it does if the officer had no right. What
may be murder in the first case might be nothing more than manslaughter
in the other, or the facts might show that no offense had been
committed.”

“When a person, being without fault, is in a place where he has a right
to be, is violently assaulted, he may, without retreating, repel by
force, and if, in the reasonable exercise of his right of self defense,
his assailant is killed, he is justified.” Runyan v. State, 57 Ind. 80;
Miller v. State, 74 Ind. 1.

“Each person has the right to resist an unlawful arrest. In such a case,
the person attempting the arrest stands in the position of a wrongdoer
and may be resisted by the use of force, as in self- defense.” (State v.
Mobley, 240 N.C. 476, 83 S.E. 2d 100).

 

[thexrayboy]

One of the many reasons why SWAT is utilized for routine warrant service is simple. SWAT teams cost money, a lot of money compared to other areas of
law enforcement. The bean counter mentality makes those in charge think
"we have to use these teams to justify the expense, if we use them enough we can ask for more money". To most departments SWAT is an expensive toy to be played with whenever possible. They rationalize it as being safer for officers to use overwhelming force, they talk about the needs for real life
experience etc. etc. This does not change the fact that 90+% of the raids performed by SWAT teams could easily be done in other fashions.

One simple option is to watch the building. Take the occupants of the building into custody outside of the house where you can see them and know if they are carrying the oh so scary AK that is always talked about as being possibly present in these no knock warrants. Grab em getting in the car, or at the ATM machine or walking out of mickey d's. If the BATF had just decided to pull David Koresh over while he was away from Mount Carmel
instead of mounting a raid for the media circus the debacle at Waco may not
have led to mass murder. Lots of options exist. Remember the old aphorism....when all you have is a hammer all problems look like a nail.

All situtations must need SWAT if you can't be bothered to look for alternatives.

And yes the police need to be held civilly liable for mistakes. An apology won't cut it for medical malpractice, I'm sorry won't deter the lawyers if you rear end someone at a stop sign, oops is no excuse when you do damage to someone elses property. The idea that the government and government goons are exempt from civil action is abhorrent and leads to the "screw the public" attitude displayed at many levels of public service.

 

[beerslurpy]

And yes the police need to be held civilly liable for mistakes.

And not just for wrongful death and permanent injury. Any sort of property damage (including pets) or even gun pointing should be actionable. Yes, even gun pointing. I think the whole realm of wrongful SWAT invasions falls squarely in the realm of offensive battery and damages should be accordingly steep.

Regarding recovery, people should be able to recover the full amount of damages from every person up the chain of command that participated in or authorized the raid. Recover from them personally and recover from the city as well. Think of it as joint and several liability on steroids.

I am not one for slinging around legislative solutions to non-problems but I think it is pretty hard to deny that there is a serious problem here that needs to be rectified. If fear of crushing liability is the only thing that will dissaude police departments from this sort of responsibility, then so be it.

And there needs to be no good faith excuse for mistakes- any mistake as to the identity of the person or place on the SWAT warrant should be seen as prima facie evidence of negligence.

Yeah, I admit I am mixing negligent and intentional torts here, but that is really what these SWAT raids are all about- someone negligently screws up the affidavit or warrant and the SWAT ninjas end up intentionally committing harms against someone that doesnt deserve it. For which everyone who took part should be held liabile. I want the government to tread on f***ing tiptoes around militarizing law enforcement.

 

[Jeff White]

thexrayboy said,

One of the many reasons why SWAT is utilized for routine warrant service is simple. SWAT teams cost money, a lot of money compared to other areas of
law enforcement. The bean counter mentality makes those in charge think
"we have to use these teams to justify the expense, if we use them enough we can ask for more money". To most departments SWAT is an expensive toy to be played with whenever possible. They rationalize it as being safer for officers to use overwhelming force, they talk about the needs for real life
experience etc. etc. This does not change the fact that 90+% of the raids performed by SWAT teams could easily be done in other fashions.

And what police department have been chief of? What is your personal experience that has given you this insight into how police departments work? Were you ever a sworn officer? Do any supervisory time, say Sergeant or above?

The reason I ask is because the truth is the exact opposite of what you posted. Unless a department is large enough to have a dedicated tactical unit, it's pretty hard to just whistle up a Tac Team for every mundane task. The officers who are on most tactical units have other duties within the department and it costs money to pull them away from those duties for a SWAT callout. Often supervisors who want to use a Tac team are turned down by the administration because of the overtime money involved. Most often a suervisor is told to handle it with the personnel that are available.

No one posting in this thread saw the intelligence workup that was done prior to the warrant being secured and served. Until you know what information was available to the department, you have no business speculating on if the response was appropriate for the threat. Quite simply none of us knows enough about the situation to make any judgement call as to if the use of the SWAT team was appropriate or not.

Of course that isn't as much fun......

Jeff

 

[beerslurpy]

There is no shortage of doctors who have gone bankrupt because they mistook the left ear for the right or performed a procedure on the 3rd cervical vertebra instead of the 4th.

The consequences of police screwing up are just as severe as when doctors screw up, so why do we let cops off so light? If a doctor accidentally performs a sex change on the wrong person, we dont let him off because he "executed his duties in good faith." We need to toss qualified immunity in the toilet where it belongs.

edit: and yes, I'm working on my Torts outline right now.

 

[Jeff White]

beerslurpy said'

There is no shortage of doctors who have gone bankrupt because they mistook the left ear for the right or performed a procedure on the 3rd cervical vertebra instead of the 4th.

Non of them went bankrupt until after there was an investigation and the facts were brought out in court. None of them were presumed guilty. yet in every one of the hundreds of threads on this subject in the few years this forum has been in operation there has been a presumption of guilt. The same people whopost here castigating the media and the government for presuming something is the way that matches up with their personal wolrdview are just as guilty as those they wail about in other threads when the subject fits into their particular worldview.

I've always found that interesting......

Jeff

 

[pcosmar]

Wrong person, wrong address=incompetence=Pi** Poor police work.

 

[qlajlu]

http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

Jeff White, take a look at the map done by the Cato Institute. I would say the the use of tactical teams serving warrants is less than stellar. No one here is saying that they aren't needed. What we are saying is that that there appears to be some high ranking officers that are more interested in making a statement. Terrorizing innocent citizens and, as bad as I hate to say it, traumatizing children, is not what SWAT is about.

Agreed, we do not have sufficient information. Based on the information we do have about the raid Shaq took part in, SWAT was way "over kill."

We always hear of other professional people being sued for malpractice, doctors, attorneys, etc., but I have yet to hear of a government agency being successfully sued for kicking in the wrong door. Yes, they have paid dearly for wrongful death, but not for terrorizing people like a common gang of thugs.

 

[thexrayboy]

Mr White.
What police department do you work for?

The general idea is not that the police should be prejudged without benefit of
the courts but that they be held accountable for the actions they take and also for the decision making processes they use to decide what level of force to use and under what circumstances they deploy these forces in serving warrants on the homes of citizens.

Oh and by the way, I was in law enforcement, albeit briefly and not recently.
Nothing wrong with the profession, I simply chose to change to another career that was more interesting to me.

 

[mkh100]

SWAT.......they never seem to use the "T" anymore. Its not just special Weapons....how about using some common sense "tactics"

Why not have two guys watch this fellas door till he comes outside then bag him and execute the warrant. Its not as if he was in there with a kid committing some preventable act.

For a long time in this country swat teams were used to arrest truley violent offenders. Then we started allowing no-knock warrants in the 80's to keep drug dealers from flushing the evidence down the toilet. Now we hit a guys house for sick crap he MAY have on his computer.

This should make every decent police officer sick to his stomach......innocent people getting their doors kicked in......when that wasn't even the right action to take against the perpetrator. Ridiculous !


edited to add......no I don't know all the circumstances, but I didnt hear anything the chief said after the fact to alter my view. Jeff you mentioned an intelligence report....Would the guys writing that up be the same ones responsible for making sure it was the perp's house? Jeff, Ive been on the inside of several dozen raids in a major metropolitan Dept. I come much closer to agreeing with thexrayboy on this issue. And I dont need to ever be Supervisor or above to look at it and make the judgement that I don't want THAT happening to ME.

Was it Jefferson that said "better that 100 guilty men go free than 1 innocent man lose his life"? Whats one whole sleeping family worth ???

 

[beerslurpy]

Jeff, I think people are responding less to the instant case than to a long train of SWAT misuses and negligence.

Although people who suffer grave injuries at the hands of an errant SWAT team are possibly going to recover a gigantic settlments, there is really little that someone can do if the only harm is that they kicked in your door and pointed guns in your faces.

I see every door-kick + gun-pointing at a wrong address as a potential homicide. But the officers involved tend to treat it as if it were no more serious than abbreviating your state on a 4437.

There also isnt much that people can do if the only surviving witnesses are the officers who did the shooting- who is going to produce evidence showing that they didnt identify themselves? Look at the Diotaiuto case (also in Florida) where the police repeatedly changed the story and didnt get in any sort of legal trouble for it. (yes, they changed the substantive elements of the story- whether or not he had a gun when they shot him).

 

[Aguila Blanca]

What happened to the Nuckols family was wrong, but the thousands - if not millions - of children victimized by Internet criminals cry out for the justice that only a continuing law enforcement effort can deliver.

Translation: "Sure, the cops messed up--so what? Shut up, serf, it's for the children."

 

[Jeff White]

qlajlu said,

Jeff White, take a look at the map done by the Cato Institute. I would say the the use of tactical teams serving warrants is less than stellar.

I've looked at the map before. Here's the problem with that data. There is no map showing how many raids were conducted before many departments formed tactical teams. Be assured, that in the years preceeding the advent of tactical units, warrants were served and raids were conducted. Everyone seems to have this idea that before a certain date that law enfocement in America was conducted in a gentlemenly manner. Well you guys can pack that myth away right now. Prior to the Warren Court and civil rights lawsuits, American law enforcement was a pretty brutal profession. It wasn't unusual for suspects to have confessions beaten out of them. Beat officers would routinely apply street justice in the form of beatings, unconstitutional arrests where suspects were sometimes moved from place to place of incarceration to beat the legal requirement of having to be brought before a judge and charged within so many hours of arrest. Neighborhoods were kept clean by drunks being beaten, thrown into the back of a squad car and drive to a neighboring town and dumped out. Sometimes they were taken to the railyard and put on a freight train headed out of town. When raids were conducted, they were often conducted by a collection of officers sometimes not even from the same agency with little or no common training or skills. Doors were broken down just then just as much as they are now. Mistakes were made then probably more often then they are now. back in the so called good old days, dangerous suspects were killed in ambush with no attempt made to arrest them. During prohibition and the age of the legendary bank robbers, officers and federal agents with little or no training engaged in gun battles with criminals on busy streets often with little regard for public safety. It might make an interesting research project to find out how many innocent people were killed or injured, how many raids on liquor establishments were made at the wrong address during prohibition and how much collateral damage was done during the Golden Age of American Law Enforcement. Sorry folks but Andy and Barney worked for a television network, not a real city.

mkh100 said,

Why not have two guys watch this fellas door till he comes outside then bag him and execute the warrant. Its not as if he was in there with a kid committing some preventable act.

How much manpower are you willing to pay for? Yes, let's just stake out the house of every criminal and wait till he comes out? That makes all kinds of sense. Who's going to answer all the calls for service once all the officers are on stakeout duty? Any idea of the manpower requirements to conduct 24-7 surveillance?

For a long time in this country swat teams were used to arrest truley violent offenders. Then we started allowing no-knock warrants in the 80's to keep drug dealers from flushing the evidence down the toilet. Now we hit a guys house for sick crap he MAY have on his computer.

The blame rests with the legislature that wrote the laws starting the war on drugs and appropriated the money to carry it out. And with the courts that looked at those cases and ruled that 15-30 seconds was sufficient time to stand at the door on a knock and announce warrant (everyone is so stuck on no knocks, but in reality they are very rare) because the state's interest in preserving the evidence of the illegal drugs trumped the individual's rights.

A police department is like any other organization. It's going to take the tools the legislature and the courts gave them and use them. If they don't they will be replaced. It's just that simple. So if you want to blame someone, look in the mirror. You, the American public, elected the representatives who wrote the laws and appointed the judges who made the rulings. If you want to stop it, you need to go to the source.

And a historical note, if you think they waited 15-30 seconds before forcing entry on a suspected liquor operation during prohibition, you're wrong.

thexrayboy asked,

Mr White.
What police department do you work for?

Please call me Jeff, Mr. White was my father. I have been in law enforcement since July 1985. If you send me a PM I'll tell you who I have worked for and currently work for.

Jeff

 

[mkh100]

Jeff White said this :

"How much manpower are you willing to pay for? Yes, let's just stake out the house of every criminal and wait till he comes out? That makes all kinds of sense. Who's going to answer all the calls for service once all the officers are on stakeout duty? Any idea of the manpower requirements to conduct 24-7 surveillance? "

Yes, actually this is an area where I actually have some experience. I have spent many an hour on just such cases. Dozens of times I have been the technician hanging the pole cam on the power pole out front for both manned and un-manned surveillance. 1-2 guys.....and this didn't have to be round the clock mind you, hell find out when and where he worked and just watch an hour before the scheduled time. But a couple guys tasked to a guy like this compared to the expense of a dozen SWAT operators for 3 to 4 hours...probably on overtime as you mentioned. I could watch this guy for a week and not approach the cost of that raiding party....and mitigate the liability exposure of the SWAT team hitting the wrong house.

Your right that the blame does not fully rest with the cops doing the work. It really isnt that they screw up from time to time, mistakes are gonna happen. Its the attitude and the air of superiority that I really take issue with. This nonsense that many cops (ones that I know, ones Im even related to) that act as if they are doing me some personal favor and just taking out the trash and so I gotta bow to them even if its them that just kicked in a door and terrorized an innocent family. We as a society have a right and a responsability to speak against this crap when its wrong.

And this was WRONG !

How Elliott Ness conducted warrants is inmaterial, except as a learning tool to do it better.

I guess I should say Jeff, that you seem like a decent guy. I knew/know a lot of decent where I used to work. It should be just as outrageous to you for your safety to be so cheaply tossed aside on these unwarranted and unecessary raids. My argument is still that better tactics should be exhausted before you are forced to draw your weapons.

 

[CornCod]

The paramilitary mentality of many modern cops gets in the way of the policemen's best weapon....his reputation and standing in the community. His best ally is the people he serves. How can an officer (even a uniformed one) develop contacts and informants in the community if he is always playing the hard character?

Although I don't advocate the use of police in counterinsurgency, it was only when the Brits reduced the number of soldiers and increased the number of police that they were able to beat the Communist guerillas in the Malayan Emergency (1946-1960.) A real cop, as opposed to an Airborne Ranger wannabe with a badge, can do amazing things!

 

[beerslurpy]

Everyone seems to have this idea that before a certain date that law enfocement in America was conducted in a gentlemenly manner. .... Prior to the Warren Court and civil rights lawsuits, American law enforcement was a pretty brutal profession.

You seriously think this? I think most people are completely aware of how things used to be and dont wish to return to such times. We want professionalism and we want policies designed to discourage innocent people from getting killed. I dont think this is too much to ask.

I think the cost concern boils down to shortsightedness and an incorrect assumption that SWAT is doing jobs uniformed officers arent capable of handling. If SWAT teams are so expensive, why are departments so reluctant to hire a few guys (dont even have to be cops) to do pre-search surveillance on people who might potentially be dangerous or elusive.

And as we pointed out numerous times in this thread, we think the attitudes displayed by the officers indicates that their hearts are in the wrong place. Subjecting other people to a significant risk of death or injury isnt something that they should be relaxed and dismissive about, because it implies that there are no negative consequences for their carelessness. Either policies need to change so there are consequences or the officers need to be reeducated so they learn about them.

 

[qlajlu]

And what police department have been chief of? What is your personal experience that has given you this insight into how police departments work? Were you ever a sworn officer? Do any supervisory time, say Sergeant or above?

I have worn a badge. I did have supervisory duties. Unfortunately the department I worked for was primarily traffic oriented (Highway Patrol) and my career ended just as SWAT teams were becoming vogue. My problem is not with the teams, but the way they are sometimes utilized. This thread has digressed into almost a bashing of SWAT teams when the real problem is the idea some department heads have that SWAT is the ONLY acceptable way to serve any warrant, and when you have drugs, violent felons, holed up schizophrenics, and such, I agree. But the starting post of this thread made it clear that we were talking about child pornography. This is not violent, and evidence can't be flushed down the toilet or burned fast enough for a team of regular officers to serve a search warrant. You cannot wipe a computer hard drive fast enough to rid it of evidence and even if it were wiped, there are forensics people who can recover the evidence.

I just don't think that SWAT was warranted in this particular case regardless of the fact that the warrant was served at the wrong address.