$5,000.00 Firearm Safe vs. Cinder Block Outbuilding With Fire Door

[westtx28]

This is a fascinating thread. I have wanted to build a small shop with an underground room for years. I thought it would be just like a small basement however in my part of Texas everything is build slab on grade and couldn't find a contractor to do what I wanted to do. I too thought about a 20' shipping container but was told that was a bad idea for several reasons. I even thought about trying to use a large pre-formed septic tank and building on top of that.

The ICF forms are interesting and something I hadn't thought about. I don't know how many non- commercial contractors around here have experience with that method.

 

[Ohio Gun Guy]

Not a bad solution, but look at the yeild from bags of concrete / cost vs trucks. You'll want to get a concrete truck there to fill the mold. You will have to also figure a method of adding a veneer or siding. You'll have rigid foam insulation as the final wall.

Owens corning makes some of these, you should be able to get info from them / website.

 

[Mike1234567]

If I pour concrete then I'll definitely have it hauled in and I'll be sure to order the best mix for the job. The veneer will probably be some type of metal siding.

I too have considered doing something with a pre-built septic tank but I don't know if the construction is appropriate for this purpose.

 

[alsaqr]

Concrete block walls are not sturdy unless the holes are filled with concrete with re-bar.

 

[DM~]

I've checked into ICF's some time ago, here they are about $16.00 ea., then you have to put the rebar in them and reinforce them.

I can build the forms cheaper useing 7/16" OSB, 2x4's and steel cattle panels, then leave the OSB in place.

Makeing up some forms, putting a safe in the middle, and pouring it full of cement, encaseing the safe only leaveing the door exposed. Makes for something darn fireproof, not movable and forces the theives to have to go in through the door. All of that can easily be done for less than 5K with a decent sized safe. If it all is put in a spot in the basement or garage kinda hidden, it would be hard to beat, for the $ spent.

DM

 

[Mike1234567]

DM... I'm trying to picture how one could use those materials to make ICFs. Do you have a link to more info?

 

[DM~]

DM... I'm trying to picture how one could use those materials to make ICFs. Do you have a link to more info?

I didn't say i could make ICF's, i said i could build forms out of OSB cheaper than useing ICF's. Then fill the forms with concrete, just like you would have to fill the ICF's...

DM

 

[CollinLeon]

CMUs (aka cinder blocks) laid width-wise instead of length-wise. That way, you have a 16" thick wall. Fill the blocks with concrete and rebar that is tied to the rebar in the slab. Of course, you have to pour a steel reinforced concrete roof also. Then put plate steel on the walls and ceiling about 1/2" thick. Even better, but it on the outside AND inside.

I remember driving along the coast highway after Katrina over in Biloxi, MS and seeing where all the coastal buildings had been basically swept inland. The concrete slabs were still there, but there was nothing still atop them. Except for a bank -- the vault was still there even though the rest of the building had be wiped off the face of the earth.

One of the problems with these types of vault type buildings though is that you are more than likely going to have to hire contractors to do the work and as such, you have a security risk there since they are going to know that you are building a really strong room / building to hold *something* and it is probably rather valuable. If you live somewhere that you need to submit plans to the country prior to any building on your property, there is a security issue there also. If I was building a house from scratch, I think I would have a large circular concrete area put in the center of it with a piece of concrete culvert placed in there on end. I would label it as hot tub or "water feature" on the plans so that it wouldn't be as noticeable to them what you really were doing.

A little paranoia is a healthy thing...

 

[Mike1234567]

CollinLeon... All good advice. Thank you. I had considered building double-thick cinder block walls but reorienting them 90 degrees does nearly the same thing. However, I'm thinking that having a double-layer wall with the blocks staggered is slightly stronger because the seams and concrete-filled voids would be staggered instead of in-line. Rebar would indeed be used throughout with the lowest ones set into the foundation. I'll have people helping me but I'll just tell them the building is a tornado shelter that will "double" as basic storage.

ETA: I've been researching this a little more and it seems that poured concrete is stronger than concrete-filled cinder blocks... no surprise there. As DM suggested, I could build the forms and steel reinforcement myself pretty cheaply so the cost of either type of construction may be about the same. Either way, I'd still need to add insulation unless I go with ICFs. I'm now looking into the cost of ICFs.

 

[CollinLeon]

Building double thick cinder block walls will still have seams in line unless you make one of the walls start off a half cinder block taller than the other wall.

But yeah, poured concrete would be stronger. Just remember to put a LOT of rebar in it.

The advantage of cinder blocks is that you can do the work yourself and no one would know about it. Either way, you will need to remember that you are going to have to put a SECURE roof on this building. It doesn't do any good to have secure walls if a crook could go in through the ceiling. Bank vaults have a lot of concrete and steel on all SIX surfaces (4 sides + top + bottom).

Another option for new construction might be to have some of the large rectangular drainage conduit laid down prior to the pouring of the slab for a house and then to have basically a manhole and ladderway that goes down into this drainageway / tunnel. It would serve as an ultimate tornado shelter while giving you a place to store your firearms (safe from most anyone that doesn't have a backhoe). Of course, if you live in an area which is subject to flooding, this might not be that great of an idea... If you live somewhere subject to tornadoes AND flooding though, you might have to balance the risks -- at least you have a longer warning period before a flood event whereas with a tornado, you might only have minutes.

 

[Mike1234567]

^^^ The roof frame would be steel I-beams converging to a single point and welded in the middle. That's the easiest design that will support a thick concrete roof.

The addition of large diameter drainage conduit leading to the building for underground transit is intriguing. I'll look into that.

 

[CollinLeon]

^^^ The roof frame would be steel I-beams converging to a single point and welded in the middle. That's the easiest design that will support a thick concrete roof.

The addition of large diameter drainage conduit leading to the building is intriguing. I'll look into that.

Sometimes you just need to think outside the box so to speak...

When you say that your location is "Alamo City", are you meaning the San Antonio area? If so, flooding is probably not that big of a concern for you... I'm in the Houston area and we've had areas with 36" of rain over a 24 hour period, so flooding can be a concern for some people...

 

[Mike1234567]

^^^ Yes, when I joined this community I lived in San Antonio. I now live just north of Floresville but I still work in SATX. I like the idea of the Alamo and TX as an independent country so I left that in my info.

It's true that flooding is seldom an issue here but... remembering 1998 and 2000... 'tweren't perty.

 

[CollinLeon]

^^^ The roof frame would be steel I-beams converging to a single point and welded in the middle. That's the easiest design that will support a thick concrete roof.

The addition of large diameter drainage conduit leading to the building for underground transit is intriguing. I'll look into that.

When you say "large diameter", you are implying that it would be circular. Although this is probably a stronger solution, the ones that I was suggesting were the rectangular concrete culverts. Something like they are using here:

Maybe label it as a "cistern" on any drawings...

 

[Mike1234567]

Yes, I was implying corrugated culverts. I can't afford the option you're writing about.

 

[CollinLeon]

Yes, I was implying corrugated culverts. I can't afford the option you're writing about.

From what I've gathered, the corrugated culverts can be relatively strong as long as you put them down with cement stabilized sand as the backfill in the trench. I've seen this done with some culverts under bridges. Don't remember the diameter though. You would probably be looking at a 6 ft or so diameter culvert so that you could walk along it. I know for a fact that I've seen 5 ft diameter culverts.

Personally, I'm more of a fan of concrete... The Colosseum in Rome is made from concrete and it's been around for around 1900 years. If it hadn't been for earthquakes and stone theft, it would probably be in a bit better shape. I visited there a couple of years ago and it's in pretty good shape for being 1900 years old. A lot better shape than I'm going to be in 1900 years...



I've seen some HDPE culverts being listed as having a 100 year lifespan.

Another thing to consider with HDPE culverts is how you are going to attach shelving, electrical wiring, lights, etc... If you screw it into the HDPE, you will have introduced a moisture penetration point. Maybe you could use some type of construction adhesive and glue 2x4s to it and then attach things to the 2x4s.

 

[4v50 Gary]

I'm given to believe that the ancient Roman formula for concrete is superior to our concrete of today. They had some lava ash stirred into theirs. Our concrete can deteriorate in a 100 years. Even better than the Roman stuff is whatever the Egyptians used to hold their pyramids together.

 

[CollinLeon]

I'm given to believe that the ancient Roman formula for concrete is superior to our concrete of today. They had some lava ash stirred into theirs. Our concrete can deteriorate in a 100 years. Even better than the Roman stuff is whatever the Egyptians used to hold their pyramids together.

If I remember correctly, the pyramids were just massive stones cut to fine tolerance and stacked together. I think they might have had some sort of powdered stone between the courses of the stones to allow them lay properly on each other. What works for a dry environment like the desert doesn't necessarily work for a wetter environment like around here.