5.45 vs. 7.62 for Urban Defense

[Gig 'em]

Jeff65, well said. As for the whole topic...wow...civilian urban warfare is a big stretch in our current society. Home and personal defense, on the other hand is right up the our alley. I'll almost always take a 30 cal over something smaller, but that is me. 7.62x39 would overpenetrate excessively in a home defense situation though. Good luck with whatever you decide. Thanks
-Gig 'em-

 

[PTK]

Welcome to THR. I usually don't like playing devil's advocate, but I would tend to think that instead of one thug or even a group of thugs would rather attack you when you reach the BBQ/car/plywood/etc instead of launch a full out assault of your house.

PTK, I think in a defensive situation, this is much more impressive:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/D&S Manufacturing 123gr Hornady V-Max.html

Just under 12" penetration is.... abysmal. That's the sort of performance one would expect from, for example, a Glaser-style rifle projectile. My .45 ACP JHP loads penetrate more than that while still giving quite a large (though nowhere near that large) wound cavity. If given the choice, I'd rather have more penetration instead of amazing wound cavity only a few inches in.


And, again, $0.11/rd versus (in this case) $0.67/rd. And in your exact example, the 7.62x39 exhibits less damage, less penetration, etc., than the 5.45x39 surplus.

 

[Cal-gun Fan]

Wait a minute. There are drive by shootings fairly regular even in my area. That's attacking you from outside your house isn't it? I wouldn't respond with a rifle but I'd certainly use a shotgun. It isn't entirely "silly" to consider that. And there have been a very few cases where rifles were useful in urban settings. They are very rare but they do happen. The LA riots and Katrina are two examples. More specifically the looting by gangs after Katrina was a situation that called for an SKS or some other battle carbine IMO especially if everyone else in your neighborhood was gone elsewhere.

Yeah, but a driveby is probably going to happen fast enough that you'd be better to grab your shotgun and go to the farthest room from the street. I was speaking more to the concept of an organized siege of sorts.

 

[Robert]

Check out Box of Truth for some interesting, if non scientific, penetration testing.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/

 

[Cal-gun Fan]

I know a guy who was killed by his nephew who took his SKS to the guy's trailer and shot it up from the outside until it looked like Swiss cheese. He had a few 30 round mags and he emptied them all. I don't remember the exact round count but it was a lot. He was mad the guy wouldn't return some stuff he loaned him. Attacks from outside do happen. Strangely though the guy's wife survived the ordeal without a scratch by hiding in a closet. I think the guy I knew must have drawn fire away from her in order to save her life. He was a jerk but not that big of a jerk. He would have tried to save his wife I'm sure. That was one guy in an urban setting too. If the guy inside would have had a good shotgun I think he would have done pretty well in defending himself. I don't think he had anything though. It's been a while back so I'm not real clear on the details.

Whoah...that really is an interesting situation. Must have been a lot of money or the guy had some serious mental issues.
I think I would overall prefer a shotgun or pistol in any sort of realistic situation. Does that mean I wouldn't grab a rifle if there was one in my vicinity? Hell no I just think that you shouldn't plan for a situation like this as if its a tactical urban combat scenario thing.

 

[JustinJ]

There have been more "best gun or caliber for end of the world" threads than one can count so I don't see why this one is getting so much flak for being implausible. Personally i'm a little more bothered that it is apparently okay now to provide off topic responses about training when someone asks a ballistics question. High velocity .22 vs slower .30 thread is about as tired as can be so i dont particulary care for it but i think this criticism is unfair.

 

[dprice3844444]

http://m14forum.com/geedunk/98682-u-s-marines-ammo-penetration-test.html

maybe this will answer some of your questions,enjoy

 

[nathan]

Either of one is great. Important thing is you hit the target and live another day.

 

[gunnutery]

http://www.brassfetcher.com/D&S Ma...y V-Max.html
Just under 12" penetration is.... abysmal. That's the sort of performance one would expect from, for example, a Glaser-style rifle projectile. My .45 ACP JHP loads penetrate more than that while still giving quite a large (though nowhere near that large) wound cavity. If given the choice, I'd rather have more penetration instead of amazing wound cavity only a few inches in.


And, again, $0.11/rd versus (in this case) $0.67/rd. And in your exact example, the 7.62x39 exhibits less damage, less penetration, etc., than the 5.45x39 surplus.

why is that abysmal? Because the FBI says so? 12 inches is enough to hit vital organs, plus it dumped all of it's energy into a human sized target.

 

[Cal-gun Fan]

There have been more "best gun or caliber for end of the world" threads than one can count so I don't see why this one is getting so much flak for being implausible. Personally i'm a little more bothered that it is apparently okay now to provide off topic responses about training when someone asks a ballistics question. High velocity .22 vs slower .30 thread is about as tired as can be so i dont particulary care for it but i think this criticism is unfair.

Because people are tired of it first and second because of his wording. This is the high road. I think most people see talk about urban warfare and such as the low road, no offense to the OP. It is fun to fantasize, but I personally don't think it belongs on this forum

 

[jmr40]

5.45 millimeter = 0.214 inch, 56gr. X 2700fps = ~900ft lbs of energy at the muzzle

I was under the impression that 5.45 was loaded closer to 3,000fps muzzle velocity..

It is actually a bit above 3100 fps, closer to 3200 fps with some loads.

At home defense ranges a good 223 soft point is pretty wicked. They are still very effective at moderate ranges of 200-300 yards as well against human targets. You don't need a cartridge designed for moose hunting to kill a man.

The larger 7.62 calibers with their heavier bullets don't kill humans any deader. At least not at the ranges encountered 99% of the time. They do offer better penetration against barriers and some offer better long range performance. Neither of those are a concern to me and how I would use a rifle to defend myself.

 

[amprecon]

The topic is not "tired" enough to keep getting responses.

 

[amprecon]

5.45 millimeter = 0.214 inch, 56gr. X 2700fps = ~900ft lbs of energy at the muzzle

Alright, give it 3100fps you'll get ~1194ft lbs vs. ~1500ft lbs

You make the call.

 

[JustinJ]

"Because people are tired of it first and second because of his wording. This is the high road. I think most people see talk about urban warfare and such as the low road, no offense to the OP. It is fun to fantasize, but I personally don't think it belongs on this forum"

But my point is his thread is no different than many others so why is it being singled out? His wording could be better but it doesn't imply any sort of intent. I don't see theoretical talk about urban warfare as any more "low road" than any other talk about military uses of firearms.

"The topic is not "tired" enough to keep getting responses."

Doesnt change the fact that nothing about .22 vs .30 is gona be said that hasn't been said a million times before.

 

[sixgunner455]

What is best for defense? Hit your target.

Whether you are shooting a rabbit, Bambi's mom, a dove, a rabid skunk, a pitbull attached to your leg, a home invader intent on robbery/rapine/murder, a crack addict trying to gut you and take your wallet outside a mall, restaurant or theater, invading hordes of whatever trying to take over wherever you live, or protecting your armed camp in the zombie apocalypse - the only thing that really matters is hitting your target.

Not what you're shooting, nor what caliber it is, nor what shape the bullet takes. First, hit the target.

In preparation for such things, buy a gun. Buy one that you like, preferably. Buy lots of ammunition, and use lots of it learning to efficiently and effectively employ your weapon - learn to hit your target.

Then, practice hitting targets.

 

[Sebastian the Ibis]

Well the Soviet Union had to make this choice about 40 years ago, and at great expense they converted to 5.45 from 7.62x39.

Their ideas about economics may have been lacking, but they were very very good at developing small arms.

 

[RX-178]

I prefer the 7.62x39mm rounds over the 5.45.

The 5.45 has superior range, and performance at range, but in an Urban Defense situation that the OP is asking about, there's no need to sacrifice the extra stopping power of the 7.62 rounds.

 

[amprecon]

"The topic is not "tired" enough to keep getting responses."

Doesnt change the fact that nothing about .22 vs .30 is gona be said that hasn't been said a million times before.

Your not obliged to read or reply in any way then......

 

[Sky]

Many of the same topics get asked and discussed. A forum is where ideas are shared, discussed and debated with elements of both truth and total hearsay mixed with an occasional fantasy.

If people ever decide "it ain't worth talking/typing about" then we just make an index card for THR and not let anyone post; just read. New members come here all the time and almost everything is new to them....Welcome....

I come here for knowledge and new thoughts; usually not disappointed on either front. Those who believe something bad will never happen good for them. Those who believe there is a booooggar bear around the corner waiting for them then good for them also. Whatever the reasoning and motivation for a particular thought train then so be it. I walk in my shoes not someone Else's but am interested in the sounds you make as you walk through life for I might learn something or acquire a different thought or way of looking at something. If someone is not interested in my sounds then don't listen.

Hummmm Both rounds are good and the little SKS I have is a joy to shoot. Open iron sights and very little recoil so rounds on target ain't a problem. The only thing I am not in love with is the cleaning of the weapon after shooting corrosive ammo. But, $189 for 1120 rounds of 7.62x39 brass cased kinda makes me feel better. Good luck on whatever you decide. Gotta be better than chunking rocks!

 

[JustinJ]

A search of 5.45 and 7.62 turns up 388 posts and nothing new has been said this time around. I tend to think the board would prove more useful and enjoyable by not repeating the same things over and over again but that's just me.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I actually have been threatened from inside my home by someone who said they were outside my house.

Being verbally threatened is not a de facto justification for the use of lethal force. There generally has to be an imminent threat of mortal danger that passes the 'reasonable person' test, though this varies greatly by jurisdiction.

In your case above, someone who 'says they are outside your house' (presumably on the phone or other electronic medium) would not likely pass that hurdle.

Some empty handed jack wagon standing in your yard saying he's going to kill you is not an imminent threat, if you are inside. The verbal threat is not enough to justify lethal force.

 

[benEzra]

For actual civilian defense of home in an urban or suburban area, I think 5.45x39 has a slight edge, primarily because excessive penetration of building materials is not a virtue in a typical home-defense scenario. 5.45x39 is a bit more like .223 in that regard. Neither is a bad caliber, but you do have to select ammunition with your home's surroundings in mind. I own a 7.62x39mm AK (and like it) but would probably go with 5.45 if I were going to buy another.

I also like the fact that 5.45x39mm is lighter (loaded 7.62x39mm steel magazines weigh nearly two pounds each).

For a gun that might need to be a dual-purpose hunting and HD carbine, though, 7.62x39 wins in that scenario since it is ballistically rather similar to a .30-30 Winchester, and the 154-grain softpoints are reportedly pretty decent deer loads.

 

[Ignition Override]

A guy in Argentina experienced a steady, but gradual social collapse during very high inflation years ago.
What might seem disappointing is what people don't expect.

He states that there will almost never be a guy walking towards you or your home who looks like a bad guy.
His main point was that people will find sneaky, and subtle ways to cheat and deceive you, in order to take advantage.

Correct me if my memory from two weeks ago is mistaken, but this guy seems to find the need for any weapon-if at all-other than a handgun comical.
He apparently saw nothing that resembles even a small bit of the Road Warrior or the many dozens of post-apocalyptic movies on late-night Cinemax, Showtime etc.

You might check "Surviving in Argentina, life in A. after the 2001 crisis", by Fernando "FerFal" Aguirre.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Perhaps this Argentine fellow should spend some time in Mexico in the violent places the drug wars are going on. Any gun, and possibly a rifle, might be the only thing that gets one out alive of a bad situation. Of course, few innocent people are armed, so the result is mostly innocent people slaughtered. But the presence of a DEFENSIVE long gun MIGHT have changed a few of those deaths. Not all societies are the same during a collapse or economic challenge (remember the LA riots?).

 

[sixgunner455]

Ignition Overide, your memory is mistaken. Fernando's handle on most boards is "FerFAL" for a reason - his preferred and recommended long gun is the FAL, especially one with a folding stock (so it will fit more places when not being used, and can be carried more easily). For packing around and discretely being armed, he recommends high capacity handguns. For really getting serious, he recommends a battle rifle that will go through stuff, is rugged, has lots of bullets, etc, etc.

Most of what he talks about is personal protection strategies and tactics, not weapons.