5.56/.223 for Home Defense?

[eldon519]

I haven't seen anything credible in this thread that actually casts real doubt on the ability of the 5.56. If you look at just about every western military, elite police unit, etc, they are using this exact combo for CQB. The HK MP5 has largely been phased out. There also hasn't been wide-spread adoption of alternative calibers such as 6.8mm or .300 BLK among these units either. Obviously there is some serious inertia among something like an entire military branch, but if 5.56 and the AR-15 didn't work, it wouldn't be the most prevalent system of choice, even among those who DO have a choice.

A lot of the more elite units in the US military started using Mk262 ammo if I'm not mistaken which is a 77-gr open-tip-match projectile, extremely similar to the Hornady TAP 75 BTHP T2.

 

[1911 guy]

I have personally used the 5.56X45 round against people. Those that question its ability to stop a fight have been reading too much internet junk. Of course, there is no "perfect" round. Neither is there one that performs as advertised 100 percent of the time. It is, however, more than adequate.

In my own home, I'd avoid FMJ of any stripe, whether it be M193, M855, or just relatively cheap "range blaster" ammo. They can and will penetrate stuff that a bullet that small has no right to penetrate. I've put M855 through 8" cinder block walls and the bullet had effect on the other side.

However, a JSP or JHP is almost perfect. Due to velocity, they expand quickly, penetrate less than most handgun rounds and deliver more energy into a target, if you're a math nerd and into the numbers. Remember that the 100-plus year old .30-30 has more muzzle energy than even a .44 Magnum. Comparing handguns to rifles is an exercise in futility.

My own pick is a 45 grain JHP in a 1:9 twist. No, the groups aren't pretty at 100 yards, but the longest distance inside my home is about 40 feet.

 

[Jesse H]

http://www.breachbangclear.com/the-truth-about-rifles-for-hearth-and-home/

According to some of the posts here, on my next SWAT op I should go in with a pistol.

 

[walking arsenal]

Give this a thorough read. It will help your decision immensely. The chapters are on the left.

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/

To summarize:
.223/5.56 wont shoot through your entire house.
.223 is a good selection for home defense and interior use from a carbine platform. It's why most police departments and SWAT teams choose it.
There are a lot of myths being spread in this thread. The above link should fix that for you.

 

[rcmodel]

Only IF you could get the same folks repeting the myths to read it.

But you can't.

I've tried too many times before.

rc

 

[MistWolf]

An AR carbine in 5.56 is a good choice for house defense. I'd argue that an AR pistol with a Sig arm brace is handier. It's easier to shoot than a pistol and recoils less than a shotgun while holding more rounds and allowing faster follow up shots. It has less over penetration though dry wall than most other HD rounds. Terminal ballistics are better than handgun rounds and 12 gauge buckshot
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[Bartholomew Roberts]

The FBI minimum of 12-18" penetration is only for handgun cartridges.

No, the FBI uses that same criteria (12" minimum, 18" maximum in ballistics gel) for all of its terminal ballistics - handguns, shotguns, rifles, etc.

Here is a nice document that sums up most of the current knowledge on wound ballistics and what works (as well as why):
http://www.handguncombatives.com/resources/LE_WB_briefing_6_13.pdf

It even goes into why the same lot of 5.56mm FMJ sometimes shows great effect from one rifle and then just pokes straight through holes fired out of a different rifle.

For my own use, I keep an AR15 for my longgun and use either 5.56mm TAP or .300 110gr VMAX depending on which AR is at hand. A shotgun is definitely a formidable HD weapon as well; but I have a lot more trigger time and comfort with ARs, and in taking novices to shoot, they seem to consistently get better results with ARs than shotguns (better hits in less time).

 

[Nom de Forum]

The 5.56/.223 55gr FMJ is probably the best home defense cartridge readily available. Other bullets can make it better or worse from the standpoint of avoiding excess penetration through walls, but any loading comparable to M193 55gr FMJ is a great choice if not the best choice.

Most people in a home defense situation will handle a 5.56 semi-automatic carbine much better than any other firearm of comparable power. Having sufficient without excessive power you can easily control for accuracy and follow-up shots with only having to pull the trigger is hard to beat for HD.

 

[1911 guy]

I am a user of firearms, not a historian or gunsmith. I might be wrong, but i think the M16 and 5.56 have been in service longer than any other rifle fielded by the U.S. military.

Could that possibly be because it works?

 

[Art Eatman]

At home defense distances, I pretty much figure that any soft- or hollow-point bullet will work.

Probably helps to have various scenarios worked out, and to work on controlling one's excitement and adrenalin when danger threatens. Less chance of a missed shot.

 

[benEzra]

Shooting someone with a high velocity round in close quarters will most likely create a complete penetration hit, even with a fragmenting or high-expansion round.

.223/5.56mm JHP penetrates *less* than 00 buckshot, hence is less likely to completely penetrate than 00 buck. It also tends to penetrate fewer walls than 00 buck or handgun rounds, which is one reason why PD's have been phasing out pistol-caliber carbines and subguns in favor of .223/5.56mm rifles.

For me personally, I think the FBI standards for rifle calibers are on the excessive side for ordinary HD, at least for my circumstances. My AR is currently loaded with Federal 55gr JHP that penetrates just under 12" in gelatin, and is fragile enough to pose less risk from exiting an exterior wall than deeper-penetrating loads, IMO. I also have some Winchester 55gr softpoints in the safe, which offer similar performance.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

There are couple of things to keep in mind when considering ARs of any flavor for HD. One is that the magical formula of large cavity + less penetration is largely dependent on velocity. In 5.56mm, generally as the barrel gets shorter, you will get more penetration and smaller cavities. So an AR pistol may not give you the same results as a 16" carbine in 5.56mm.

The other is that, as benEzra noted, the FBI tends to favor penetration because a lot of police work happens in and around vehicles, and laminated auto glass is notoriously tough on bullets. A round that penetrates 18" of ballistics gelatin after passing through auto glass is going to meet the FBI criteria; but that may be more penetration than someone living in a house with stud/drywall interior walls and a brick facing wants. This is one reason why Hornady's Personal Defense line tends to show less penetration than their LE-targeted "Critical Duty" line.

Ultimately, you've got to make those choices yourself; however, I think too many people get caught up in the "What happens to my family if I miss?" question instead of the "What happens to my family if the guy I am shooting at doesn't stop what he is doing very quickly?" Any round that meets even just the minimum FBI 12" criteria for penetration in bare gelatin is going to travel through several interior drywall/stud walls and still have the potential to be lethal. There is no magic round that can be stopped by paper filled with 5/8" powdered gypsum but still smash through, muscle, fat, and bone to stop a threat.

This is one reason I really like a "fort up" strategy if it will work in your situation. You get to pick the backstop in advance of the conflict (the entrance to your "fort" area) and you minimize the negatives of a long gun (movement through a structure) while maximizing the benefits (easier to aim, better hits).

 

[Corn-Picker]

I've posted this stat before (do a Google search to find the original journal article), but research of police shootings show that trained personnel (i.e. cops) had a hit rate of only 15-20%, and another journal article showed that 9 out of 10 people shot with hand guns live (although it didn't break anything down by caliber or shot placement). If I were not on my phone I could link to the source documents.

After a lot of research, I've concluded that what matters is being able to throw as much lead at your target as possible, because a 460 weatherby magnum won't stop them if you miss, which based on the stats, there's an 80-85% chance you'll miss any one shot. Based on what I've concluded the AR is an excellent HD weapon. If I had the money to spend a PS90 would be my HD weapon; 420-650 ft-lbs, fifty rounds on board, near zero recoil, maneuverable, won't make you deaf/blind, no over prenetration, and mild enough for the wife to use.

 

[Sunray]

You need to stop watching vampire/zombie movies.
"...penetrates between 12 and 18 inches?..." Of what? A rifle isn't the best house defence firearm anyway, but penetration of a foot or more will also penetrate that much 100 + yards down the street.
"...don't enjoy practicing with my shotgun..." Change ammo. You don't need slugs or buckshot. Target loads will do.

 

[Inebriated]

XM193 from a 16" M&P is my HD choice.

 

[HOOfan_1]

A rifle isn't the best house defence firearm anyway,

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

"...penetrates between 12 and 18 inches?..." Of what? A rifle isn't the best house defence firearm anyway, but penetration of a foot or more will also penetrate that much 100 + yards down the street.

He is referring to the FBI criteria for wounding ballistics, which they use to choose their handgun, rifle and shotgun rounds. The minimum requirement is 12" of 10% ordnance gelatin, with a maximum requirement of 18".

This requirement is because human beings are not made out of ballistics gelatin and 12" of penetration in gelatin may end up being substantially less in a person due to bones, or intervening limbs, or even the elastic effect of skin in an intervening limb. Additionally, unlike the B-27 target on the range, you may not get an ideal frontal unobstructed torso shot, making it necessary to shoot through more tissue in order to reach the vitals. The FBI has determined that bullets that penetrate 12-18" in ballistics gelatin are more effective in actual shootings. They've also determined that penetration in excess of 18" is not desired because that usually means a shoot-through.

 

[Scot43]

A laser-sighted AR carbine is a formidable defense weapon. The catch here is it is a formidable weapon in the hands of a highly capable individual…not an untrained, casual shooter. And, as a weapon in the hands of the average mom, alone at home, probably more of a detriment than a help.
A twelve gauge shotgun loaded with buckshot, IMO, is probably the most efficient home defense weapon. The odds of stopping an intruder using a shotgun are much better than using a rifle in the hands of an average person.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The catch here is it is a formidable weapon in the hands of a highly capable individual…not an untrained, casual shooter. And, as a weapon in the hands of the average mom, alone at home, probably more of a detriment than a help.
A twelve gauge shotgun loaded with buckshot, IMO, is probably the most efficient home defense weapon

Here is a video of an average mom making a run at a single silhouette target with a revolver, shotgun and AR15:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UauxacnFA4

 

[Inebriated]

The odds of stopping an intruder using a shotgun are much better than using a rifle in the hands of an average person.

So urge people to not be average and to get some training. My dear old mom (I mean young, sorry mom) thought she was happy with a Hi Point carbine and a laser (no optics or sights). Pretty much dragged her to the range, put her on a shot timer, and showed some basics...

She left wanting an AK.

 

[BluedRevolver]

There are couple of things to keep in mind when considering ARs of any flavor for HD. One is that the magical formula of large cavity + less penetration is largely dependent on velocity. In 5.56mm, generally as the barrel gets shorter, you will get more penetration and smaller cavities. So an AR pistol may not give you the same results as a 16" carbine in 5.56mm.

Actually, I was going to ask you about something you said in another thread a few years ago:

for what its worth, about 25% of the time, neither M193 (55gr) nor M855 (62gr) fragment).

Is this even when there's adequate velocity? 25% seems like an unacceptable probability with something like this.

 

[Dr.Rob]

A lot of us recommend M193 because its cheap to practice with, unlike $20/box hunting loads.

The more you shoot the more comfortable you are with your firearm, the more confidence and accuracy and muscle memory you will build in to running it.

I have a magazine of Winchester 55gr soft points, but I wouldn't hesitate to use M193. At 'room distance' it still overpowers just about any handgun you could handle.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Is this even when there's adequate velocity? 25% seems like an unacceptable probability with something like this.

I believe that quote is from a much older Fackler study, so I cannot recall if it excluded cases where the velocity was less than 2,500fps (which tends to be the lower end where M193 or M855 will still fragment).

However, I know Fackler discussed several cases that were nearly point blank shots (therefore likely enough velocity) where M193 did not fragment. This was because of the low angle-of-attack on impact and the bullet traveled through all of the tissue before it upset enough to yaw (extremities or skinny targets). However, that comment was also specific to M193 or M855 FMJ ammo.

You do not have to rely on whether your FMJ hits at the right angle of attack so that it yaws (and then tears itself apart due to the stress creating fragments) before it exits. You can use hollowpoints, soft points, FMJ-style bullets that behave more predictably (open-tip match, Mk318 Mod 0, M855A1), all copper-expanding bullets, varmint bullets, etc. There are much better choices than M193 or M855; but if that is all you have, they certainly perform a lot better than many other FMJ rifle rounds.

 

[eldon519]

To me FMJ is for practice, hollow or soft points are for HD. Just like a pistol for most folks. Just shoot the rifle enough with the HD load of choice to make sure it cycles and functions fine. If you are worried about it feeling different, practice with M193 and keep a couple loaded mags of 55-gr TAP Urban around the house.

 

[M1key]

55gr Sierra Game King hollowpoints.

M