breakingcontact
Member
Ha! Yes the 556 "can" do that "if" it does what it is supposed to do. Also most AR fanboys are not buying the more effective 20" barrels.
5.56 and the 7.62x39
- Thread starter Archangel14
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dprice3844444
member
at 50-75 yards,either is going to hurt like hell.you did not specify fmj or hunting ammo.
d2wing
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It works pretty well at that range with a 16 inch barrel too. I have both a 20 inch and 16 inch. I agree that the 20 inch is better but the 16 works as long as you are using quality full power ammo. Using surplus or lower velocity ammo is not going to have good results in my experience. And range and barrel length makes a difference as was said. This year I built a 20 inch rifle for that purpose.
Glockula
Member
With the right projectile selection shot placement would be much more important than caliber here. My son uses a .223 Axis on white tail and they can't tell the difference from my .308. my hunting buddy will use an SKS in the swamp bottoms and it works great. Take good shots and you will knock your target down quickly with either.
That should apply to a defense setting as well.
That should apply to a defense setting as well.
Glockula
Member
"If you have any hunting experience you would know the 30 caliber bullet to be superior to a 22 caliber round especially at the distance the op specified."
Ha! There is always one that says the bigger hole has to be better. If your real world experiences have led you to this conclusion then great. Real world experience can often tell two different tales. My 19 years of hunting have told me the opposite. I sure wouldn't take a shoulder shot with a .223 but from what I have seen I wouldn't do that with a 7.62x39 either. I would absolutely stand by the fact that what you can shoot better is more important than caliber here. It's my opinion there are actually a wider variety of both platforms and projectile selections in .223 giving it an ever so slight edge
Ha! There is always one that says the bigger hole has to be better. If your real world experiences have led you to this conclusion then great. Real world experience can often tell two different tales. My 19 years of hunting have told me the opposite. I sure wouldn't take a shoulder shot with a .223 but from what I have seen I wouldn't do that with a 7.62x39 either. I would absolutely stand by the fact that what you can shoot better is more important than caliber here. It's my opinion there are actually a wider variety of both platforms and projectile selections in .223 giving it an ever so slight edge
It is not the size of the hole sir. It is the mass of the bullet. Light weight rounds can be deflected by ribs and other heavy bones, angle of impact, etc. Nothing magic about 30 caliber. 22 is just a little small. I have lots of ar's in 223 and 7.62x39. No comparison between the two rounds for killing. My opinion based on many years of observation, nothing more. 90 percent of the time the 22 round will do just fine.
MCgunner
Member
Well, in my 52 years of deer hunting, I figured out that a reasonably powerful caliber beats a .22.
I started out with a .257 Roberts, fine deer caliber. Bought a 7mm Remington Magnum to have something with a little more pop for if i got to hunt Elk, which never happened. It kills deer pretty dead, though, no worries about blood trailing. Opens a big exit wound and they usually bang/flop anyway. I now have a nice little Remington M7 in .308 that gits'er dun. Recoil? I shoot 10 gauge on geese, the 7 don't bother me at all, and I've fired up to .375 H&H magnum without hurting myself. Recoil is a non-issue. If you can't handle the recoil of a .243 Winchester, you probably got no business hunting deer IMHO.I've taken a 250 lbs hog with a shoulder shot using the 154 Tula in a SKS. Yes, it will fully penetrate any deer that walks. I mean, it fully penetrated that hog at 70 yards. It's a decent hog caliber. If a .30-30 can do it (since 1894), the 7.62x39 can. I'm kinda wanting a mini 30, but the SKS works.
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breakingcontact
Member
SKS is a better gun if you are shooting surplus. Mini 30 has an issue with those hard primers.Well, in my 52 years of deer hunting, I figured out that a reasonably powerful caliber beats a .22.
I've taken a 250 lbs hog with a shoulder shot using the 154 Tula in a SKS. Yes, it will fully penetrate any deer that walks. I mean, it fully penetrated that hog at 70 yards. It's a decent hog caliber. I'm kinda wanting a mini 30, but the SKS works.
MCgunner
Member
Umm, well, I hadn't heard about the primers, thanks for that. They're considerably harder on Russian mil spec than American commercial. I had heard the mini 30 was suspect because of the steel cases causing jams, but the hard primer thing is more believable.
I have dies and have handloaded the caliber, but I can't match the 2200 fps that the 154 Tula stuff pushes over my Chrony. That's about all I can get out of a 135 grain I was loading. Also, it's a good inch at 100 yards more accurate than anything else I've tried including my handloads. So long as I can get that stuff, it's da one.
I have a little stash of it currently that should last a long time.breakingcontact
Member
Ive read where guys have around 20-25% of rounds that wont go off on the first strike. Also known to break firing pins. A rifle in 7.62x39 that you cant run Russian ammo in? Next youll tell me you cant use an AR mag in a mini-14!Umm, well, I hadn't heard about the primers, thanks for that. They're considerably harder on Russian mil spec than American commercial. I had heard the mini 30 was suspect because of the steel cases causing jams, but the hard primer thing is more believable.
I have dies and have handloaded the caliber, but I can't match the 2200 fps that the 154 Tula stuff pushes over my Chrony. That's about all I can get out of a 135 grain I was loading. Also, it's a good inch at 100 yards more accurate than anything else I've tried including my handloads. So long as I can get that stuff, it's da one.
Ar180shooter
Member
Agreed, bullet construction and appropriate shot placement trumps all. I've shot deer with .223 (60 gr Nosler partition), and it went clean through, blowing the heart in half. It had rapid expansion and high weight retention, exactly what you want in a medium game bullet. I always laugh when people won't consider something like a .308 or .270Win as an all round hunting rifle for Deer/Moose, and insist on something like a 7mm Rem Mag or 300 Win Mag as "I want to be able to do everything". It's like they have no concept of how bullets kill things.
Agreed, quoting hunting regulations is irrelevant when considering self-defence. 12 gauge buckshot is illegal for deer in 23 states... is that supposed to be ineffective too?
The OP first said FMJ so I would pick 5.56, with expanding ammunition then either-or.
I don't have a lot add to the topic at hand as I don't hunt nor have I been in combat. However, isn't the restriction on the 5.56 as a legal hunting caliber less to do with how effective it is on deer and more to do with the flat shooting distances it can lethally travel?
Here in Indiana, most regulations on hunting ammo seems limit the caliber to heavy bullets with short terminal ranges. Even the 30-30, often thought of as THE deer harvesting caliber, is illegal to hunt with in Indiana.
I think the regulations on the legal caliber is more for protecting bystanders from a missed shot rather than humanly killing the deer.
Here in Indiana, most regulations on hunting ammo seems limit the caliber to heavy bullets with short terminal ranges. Even the 30-30, often thought of as THE deer harvesting caliber, is illegal to hunt with in Indiana.
I think the regulations on the legal caliber is more for protecting bystanders from a missed shot rather than humanly killing the deer.
Averageman
Member
You've got some great information here.
Specialty ammo in either caliber makes all the difference.
Thats 154gr 7.62x49 is nothing to sneeze at, it would likely be my choice for a defence load for my AK. Now where can I buy 2 or 3K?
Your choice in 5.56 will be a bit more personal to your specific AR and barrel. I would research it a bit and test fire and zero a bunch and then buy it in bulk.
A lot of answers aren't readily clear unless you look closely at the conditions you'll be firing in.
If I was going to be shooting in to or through cover like a car or a brick wall I would go with 5.56.
If I was defending from inside my home 5.56.
Tweaking it further will be up to you.
Specialty ammo in either caliber makes all the difference.
Thats 154gr 7.62x49 is nothing to sneeze at, it would likely be my choice for a defence load for my AK. Now where can I buy 2 or 3K?
Your choice in 5.56 will be a bit more personal to your specific AR and barrel. I would research it a bit and test fire and zero a bunch and then buy it in bulk.
A lot of answers aren't readily clear unless you look closely at the conditions you'll be firing in.
If I was going to be shooting in to or through cover like a car or a brick wall I would go with 5.56.
If I was defending from inside my home 5.56.
Tweaking it further will be up to you.
Not in Virginia...I could use a .50 BMG to hunt deer if I wanted, but not anything under .23 caliber.
Then again...people take all kinds of different shots at deer...when you are defending yourself from a person, your attacker is generally giving you a good shot at their vitals...
MCgunner
Member
No limits to my knowledge. I bought 100 rounds a while back. Should last me a long time. It shoots to the same POA of 123 FMJ in my SKS, so I don't have to shoot it up playing. I don't use rifles for self defense, so it's hunting ammo for me, pig killers.
Neat to have a bit of firepower when you're shooting at 10 or 12 pigs. Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out. http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/produ...154gr-soft-point-ammo/cName/762x39-soft-point
Several states have (or did have) similar caliber restrictions. Its arbitrary, and dated. Part of the dated reason is that high velocity small caliber soft point loads in the past were basically varmint bullets, designed for fast explosive expansion, not controlled expansion with good bullet intergrity for deep penetration for larger animals. There are a number of good deer capable 223 loads out now, the Winchester 64 gr load being one mentioned, as well as other bonded soft points. The arbitrary part is, a 223, 22-250 or similar sized round wasn't considered a deer capable round, but a 25-20 Winchester was, simply because of bore diameter. The high velocity 22 cal rounds, with good bullets, would outclass anything capable in the 25-20 as a deer or larger game round.
BTW, I'm sure Caribou is amused by some of the caliber/game discussions, seeing first hand how many caribou and other large animals have fallen to 223's, and I'm sure with full jacketed bullets in many instances.
I believe Heimo Korth used a 22-250 with heavy bullets for most of his game shooting for subsistence hunting in NE Alaska.
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DeepSouth
Random Guy
Go to YouTube search for " rifle vs 9mm vs 45. Handgun and rifle caliaber comparison "
It's about a 30 min video of a doctor teaching a class on gun shot wounds..... He says the 7.62 inflicts more damage, and I belive him.
Here's the link..... But it maybe a mobile link, if it even works
http://youtu.be/3PAHu-5-aUM
It's about a 30 min video of a doctor teaching a class on gun shot wounds..... He says the 7.62 inflicts more damage, and I belive him.
Here's the link..... But it maybe a mobile link, if it even works
http://youtu.be/3PAHu-5-aUM
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
No, most states that specifically exclude centerfire .22's from deer hunting instituted that rule because they were considered underpowered, especially with the bullets available at the time. Most such states allow deer hunting with .270, .30-06, and .300 Win Mag, so range certainly isn't the issue.
As far as the argument as to which is more effective on deer....I've killed multiple deer with both calibers, and all died in rapid fashion. If they were around to ask, I doubt any would vouch for one caliber killing them any deader than the other, and proper bullet placement with either (using the appropriate ammo) will shred the vitals beyond recognition. Given the results I have personally witnessed, I have absolutely no qualms about using the .223 for deer hunting within 150 yards.
I've never had the slightest problem with 7.62 x 39 and mags with the AK or the SKS. Obviously a lot of SKS mags won't feed reliably but some will and if you stick with the OEM mag you won't have problems. I don't know anyone that has anyway unless it happens to be that Chinese star 20 round mag that came on some SKS models back in the early 90's.
As far as which is more deadly all I can say is both have done a devastating job for over 50 years. I'd venture a guess that the 7.62 x 39 round has killed more humans than any other round in history but I couldn't swear on that. It's sure been a popular round for some reason. It may take a few rounds to get the job done (I don't know really) but it has killed lots of folks and lots of deer too for that matter.
I have an SKS and a good supply of 7.62 x 39 but I bought it a good while back. If I was choosing today I'd go with the 5.56. I've thought about selling out and going with a AR system but I would be hard pressed to find a more reliable rifle than my SKS and that is a very important factor.
DeepSouth
Random Guy
Not as I remember, but it's been a year or so since the last time I watched it.
I do remember him saying most of the data came from the military.
It really helps to watch the video, if you want to know what it says.
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