5.56x45 or .223 at long range

[nathan]

Taking out bad guys and varmints at 500 yds is okey. Not for game like deer, hogs and antelope. You owe it to put them down with enough knockdown ballistic caliber.

 

[PabloJ]

Talking to a buddy last night about different calibers & what not & he told me that with his AR he can easily make 600 yard shots & that if it was necessary would feel confident of taking down BG's at that range.

I know that just like the .22LR the distance is over a mile but what would the effective range be for the 5.56x45/.223 round?

I'm thinking for that type of range I would want something with a bit more energy like a 7.62x51/.308 or similar round.

I would rather be behind accurate ,300 Pegasus (aka Petersen) in rifle of appropriate weight & construction. It should handle mid to long-range shots nicely. Thanks.

 

[Bart B.]

The history of 22 caliber centerfire rifles shot at long range targets has interested me for decades. I was the first person on earth to complete the standard DCM/CMP course of fire with an M16 at the 1971 National Matches. I was on the USN Rifle Team and the US Army and US Marine Corps Teams also shot M16's; all with handloads and Sierra 52-gr BTHP match bullets as my memory serves me. The crowd watching us at the 600 yard line was something else.

Back to recent times. . . . While the 5.56 NATO round was used by several service rifle teams and civilians shooting 1000 yard matches limited to the use of "service rifles," the 22 caliber ones had a hard time keeping scores as high as the 30 caliber ones produced. Folks using 7.62 NATO Garands or M1A's fired higher scores overall than those service members having to shoot M16's because they didn't have any M14NM left over to use. So, the US Army finally decided to get the NRA rules change. They convinced the NRA High Power Rifle Committee to add the AR10 in .308 Win. as a "service rifle" in that category for competition setting a record. Then went on to win the big 1000 yard team match with it in last years National Matches. Finally, the doughboys had a rifle to compete with M1's and M1A's.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...set-1k-records-at-interservice-championships/

 

[itsa pain]

My post about the .223 being effective at medium distances on people was more of a reference to a battle situation than a BG situation. I've seen several posts on this board recently where people who actually fought in Afghanistan and Iraq (I think Iraq anyway) used a 5.56 at 600 yards and used it effectively. It is true that a situation like that would be very rare in this country but I have actually seen a few places where it would be useful. For example my cousin lives on the farm and when he stopped a group of ATV riders from crossing our property at least one of them shot up his house from about 300 yards. They were on top of a hill when they did it. If I had seen this happening and I happened to be on the next hill over I would have maybe fired at their position to stop them from shooting up the house. That distance would be about 600 yards. And the hill I would be on would be higher than the hill they were on.

There are some other scenarios where firing from that same hill might become necessary. If someone pulled up the gate to the farm and starting firing at the house and I was on that same hill I would likely fire back then too. That would be about a 700 yard shot but the drop in altitude would give the bullets a lot more terminal energy.

This stuff is pretty far fetched and highly unlikely. But it is possible. Our neighbor filed a lawsuit against us trying to get a right of way across out property which would have led to a drunkards paradise camp site being built with all their traffic going across our land. That guy threatened us with violence and he is literally a cut throat of the lowest order. Yes I know that he cut someone's throat. I believe he's done worse than that. He's also maybe the best shooter I ever saw. It wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility that he would pull up to that gate and open fire.

It is possible folks. It just isn't very likely.

And once again I don't think anyone really thinks a .223 will do the same damage a 30 caliber rifle will do at 600 yards or more. I don't see the point of people trying to prove that. It's like trying to prove that gravity exists. Sure you can prove it but who doesn't already know about it?

I know the OP said he might go with a .308 for more pop at medium distances but the question was about the effective range of the .223/5.56. There are many variables in that question like how far is far and what does the OP mean by "effective" and what rifle will you be using and what ammo and what barrel length and wind conditions etc. etc. etc..

Being a fairly long term reader of this site I have learned that the answer to the question (which caliber to use) being bounced around here is of course, get both! That's what I did.

If that story is true which I doubt about shooting up farmhouses why would you post it here so anti gun people who I bet lurk here can use that against gun owners?

 

[C-grunt]

I've seen the 5.56 used effectively out to around 500 meters on bad guys. M262 is still pretty effective at that range. I've read that it will still yaw at long range.

I've read of SF getting kills out around 900 yards with M262.

 

[Cee Zee]

Taking out bad guys and varmints at 500 yds is okey. Not for game like deer, hogs and antelope. You owe it to put them down with enough knockdown ballistic caliber.

I don't know who you're addressing this too but I said what you said in my post a while back. Deer are much harder to kill than humans.

 

[strambo]

Energy isn't all that critical IMO. If you hit a person in the torso with a 5.56 at 5-600+ yds...they are most probably no longer a threat to you.

Imaging having a 77gr bullet zip through your lung with "only" 400 ft lbs of energy...then trying to effectively engage the person 600 yds away who did it! Effective, yes, ideal at that range, no.

 

[Infidel4life11]

860yards skip to the 1:50 mark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B9NkQldeu0

There are videos of guys going out to 1k with 223/556.

 

[Cee Zee]

I've seen videos of .223/5.56 rifles going as much as 1200 yards. I'd have to look for them now but I know I've seen them. No you wouldn't have any energy left at that distance. But it shows that there would be plenty of energy left at 500-600 yards. I wouldn't hunt deer with one at that distance but I would have no problem popping a coyote or a ground hog at that distance.

 

[Art Eatman]

Going back to part of the OP's questions, I have read that a criterion of the Dept/Defense was that the new bullet for the 5.56 should penetrate a helmet at 600 meters. I won't speculate as to how "effective" it would be in an anti-personel sense.

 

[mtrmn]

Going back to part of the OP's questions, I have read that a criterion of the Dept/Defense was that the new bullet for the 5.56 should penetrate a helmet at 600 meters. I won't speculate as to how "effective" it would be in an anti-personel sense.

I read the same thing somewhere I think. Seems like it was saying that the 30 cal proponents were trying to come up with some way to nip the whole 223 thing in the bud, so they came up with a test the then-current 223 couldn't pass. So, the 223 guys just proceeded to overload the 223 until it WOULD penetrate at that range. But I read this on the internet and my memory is rather selective in addition to my advanced age.
But everything on the internet HAS to be true, right?

 

[back40]

there was a fella over on longrangehunting that shot a .223 out to a mile.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4yfajXoiqg

it's certainly doable.

effectiveness on BGs at ranges over 6-700 start to get slim pretty quick. but as c-grunt mentioned, not unheard of.

 

[Outlaw Man]

I've seen videos of .223/5.56 rifles going as much as 1200 yards. I'd have to look for them now but I know I've seen them. No you wouldn't have any energy left at that distance. But it shows that there would be plenty of energy left at 500-600 yards. I wouldn't hunt deer with one at that distance but I would have no problem popping a coyote or a ground hog at that distance.

I've also seen a military sniper talking about using the Mk. 12/Mk. 262 out to those distances. It's probably not going to kill anyone - they didn't - but it kept some heads down.

I guess "effective" is a matter of your perspective.

 

[C-grunt]

I've also seen a military sniper talking about using the Mk. 12/Mk. 262 out to those distances. It's probably not going to kill anyone - they didn't - but it kept some heads down.

I guess "effective" is a matter of your perspective.

According to Shooter ballistics program M262 should go trans sonic around 1000 yards. At 1200 it's still traveling at 1000 FPS. It's going to act like a heavy 22 LR at that range. Not terribly powerful but will easily drill a hole straight through you.

 

[LebbenB]

M262 is still pretty effective at that range. I've read that it will still yaw at long range

Mk 262 Mod 1 uses a 77 gr OTM bullet. Because of the open tip construction, the bullet reliably fragments at slower speeds, giving better terminal effects at longer ranges. But it's a trade off - it's barrier blind effectiveness is hindered because of the ease of fragmentation.

M855A1 is supposed to be the best of both worlds - The bullet has a bi-metal construction that lends itself fragmentation at range, while maintaining good barrier blind penetration. The troops I know that have used it say it's pretty much works as advertised, though it's terminal effects against humans aren't as good as Mk 262 Mod 1.

 

[nastynatesfish]

Just for something to look at. This is with nosler 69gr ammo run at 2975fps. Don't mind the windage adjustment. But jut at energy givin it starts at about 1200ftlb at muzzle.

This is with a 200yrs zero in my 20" barreled bushmaster xm-15

 

[C-grunt]

Mk 262 Mod 1 uses a 77 gr OTM bullet. Because of the open tip construction, the bullet reliably fragments at slower speeds, giving better terminal effects at longer ranges. But it's a trade off - it's barrier blind effectiveness is hindered because of the ease of fragmentation.

M855A1 is supposed to be the best of both worlds - The bullet has a bi-metal construction that lends itself fragmentation at range, while maintaining good barrier blind penetration. The troops I know that have used it say it's pretty much works as advertised, though it's terminal effects against humans aren't as good as Mk 262 Mod 1.

I haven't talked with anyone that has used M855A1 yet. My buddies who are still in and I talk with are SF now and they use mostly M262. One of them told me that he got a Taliban RPG gunner at 450ish meters with his Mk18 (10.3 inch barrel) using M262 and it worked well.

I do have a couple buddies who just returned from AFG in line units. I'll try and ask them about the A1.