5.7mm Johnson

Status
Not open for further replies.
H

hdwhit

Member
Joined
Nov 16, 2015
Messages
5,159
Location
Salem, AR
Since people come and go, I post this question about every six months or so, but is there anyone out there in High-Road-Land that has ever or is currently reloading for the 5.7mm Johnson (a/k/a 22 Spitfire) cartridge?

If so, any help you can provide would be appreciated.
 
Thanks, Rule3.

I should probably mention that I have thoroughly
  • Googled,
  • Yahoo-ed, and
  • Asked Jeeves-ed, etc.,
regarding the subject and do so on a regular basis in case anything else gets added to the hive mind that is the web. I am a member on all M1 Carbine boards that discuss the 5.7 and I have corresponded somewhat extensively with Melvin Johnson's son who worked for Johnson Armaments when they were assembling and/or rebarreling M1 Carbines; including converting them from 30 Carbine to 5.7mm.

I have also corresponded with:
  • Pacific Cartridge (just prior to the Hornady acquisition) who published a reloading manual with load data for the Johnson in it,
  • RCBS on several occasions. RCBS made my forming die set as well as my reloading dies for the cartridge. They also supplied technical information on the behavior of the brass during the case forming operation and some caveats to watch out for with fit of the case shoulder, and
  • The American Rifleman regarding the availability of reloading data and appropriate bullet selection.
I think I have the on-line sources pretty much covered. And many of the people who once posted on them appear to have either just dropped off or have passed on.

Depending on which source you consult, there were only about 500 5.7mm Johnson rifles made and anywhere between 200 and 700 conversions meaning the entire population of rifles for this cartridge was probably no more than 1200. And since they stopped being manufactured in about 1982, allowing for losses to theft, destruction, environment and the ones that are probably sitting forgotten in the back of some widow's safe, I figure I need to find any and all people that know anything about loading for this cartridge so that I can 1) learn how to make my own cartridges better and 2) to get it recorded and preserved before it is lost forever.
 
Rule3 wrote:
These loads are not "good"?
Click to expand...

In a word, "No".

In a longer word, I am familiar with the site and these are the loads published in a book entitled, Cartridges of the World (I have the 3rd edition, earlier editions identical). This data would probably be good for use in loading .224 bullets to shoot out of a truly .224 barrel, but most of the rifles made by Johnson Armaments or Plainfield/Iver Johnson - the vast majority of the 5.7mm rifles produced - were not true .224 barrels (as discussed, above), so these loads give firm indications of pressures that are not safe.

It is interesting to note that the maximum loads given by this Cartridges of the World article are actually the STARTING loads for Hercules 2400 powder and middling loads for IMR-4227 as published in the Pacific manual. Thus, you can see the considerable range over which load data was published for this cartridge which did not take into account the diameter of the bullets nor the diameter of most of the rifle bores.

Also, Johnson's Son indicated the ammunition produced on their behalf did not realize the cited 3,000 fps.

I regard the Cartridges of the World loading data to be "aspirational, not actual".
 
You can pick up some factory "re manufactured" ammo at Graf and Sons for a measly $1.00 a round:what:

You got me interested in the rifle/caliber as the M1 carbine has always been a favorite of mine. Just think if we didn't give them all away!!

Seems Johnson had a good idea just at the "wrong" time.
 
Yeah, I saw that Graf had some but after I got my composure back from seeing the price, I decided to not buy it because I was afraid it was loaded with 224 bullets.

The 5.7mm Johnson sang the Siren song to me the minute I first saw it. My wife. My first cable modem. Few things have had such an effect.

I wanted to thank you for taking the time to search out those links you provided. It was very kind of you to make that kind of investment in the pursuit of my White Whale.
 
Any time. I had never heard of the clambering, so at least I learned a little bit. Good Luck in your quest.:)
 
The CMP sold M-1 Carbs for $20 dollars in 1963. It seems everyone owned a War Baby. Back in those days the stories about the 5.7 caliber carbines was intriguing. I never saw one except in gun magazines. I could not afford much in those days.
I found this thread so interesting. Does anyone use this rifle today? The cartridge looked good. Did anyone ever improve it?
 
Dog Soldier wrote:
  1. I found this thread so interesting.
  2. Does anyone use this rifle today?
  3. The cartridge looked good. Did anyone ever improve it? [Formatting added]
Click to expand...
  1. Thank you.
  2. The rifle I have was made by Iver Johnson right around the time they took over Plainfield Machine. I have only found one other person online who has said they own one, but they were in their 80s and had given up on it.
  3. I found the cartridge intriguing since I first heard about it.
    • When I bought mine (used), I was told it had a .224 barrel and the ammunition that came with it was using .224 bullets and the expander ball on the RCBS dies was appropriate to a .224 bullet.
    • So, I proceeded to load up some ammunition using the old Pacific Cartridge data and .224 bullets.
    • Five rounds was enough to tell me that it was insanely hot.
    • A cast of the chamber showed that the bore was not quite .223 and not quite .224; sort of a .2235.
    • I am now in the process of switching to .223 bullets to see if that helps.
    • As it was, I was still able to get 40 grain bullets up into the neighborhood of 2,800 fps without too much trauma to the brass.
    • I'm hoping that using .223 bullets, I can get to 3,000 fps without the bullet tumbling until it passes 100 yards.
My grandfather taught me how to shoot. He had been a marksmanship instructor at the Infantry School at Ft. Benning, Georgia throughout the 1930s and the first half of World War 2, so he knew how to teach people how to shoot. The only time a bench was used was when the rifle was being sighted in. After that, all shooting had to be offhand. My grandfather didn't think a deer or boar would wait while someone got set up on their bench. He understood benchrest competition shooting; he had done some of it, but he didn't have the same appreciation for it that he had for offhand shooting. So, as I developed under his instruction, the accuracy standard became whether I could get at least 9 out of 10 shots into the circular divot on the side of a gallon milk jug at 100 yards shooting prone, sitting, kneeling or standing. That's what I ultimately hope to get out of this little rifle.
 
Dog Soldier wrote:
It seems the .22 TCM bullets run around .2235 not sure. Call AMMO Warehouse they can tell you.
Click to expand...

Thank you very much for the link. I would never have thought about intentionally looking for bullets that run .2235.

I agree with you that if the cartridge (and associated rifle) were being re-engineered today, it could be a very different round.

The maximum chamber pressure for the 30 Carbine round is 40,000 psi (or its near equivalent as determined by the copper or lead crushers used at the time). Johnson held to that limit because he was looking to create a system where all you needed to do was:
  • Remove the 30 caliber barrel,
  • Install the 22 caliber barrel,
  • Solder a feedramp onto the receiver
And the rifle was ready to ship out the door. I guess he may have envisioned military sales to poor countries we had given M1 Carbines after World War 2 that were then facing insurgents armed with AK-47s.
 
hdwhit, Very good post. I believe that the 5.7 with today's technology and chambered in a CZ 527 would make a good medium range varmint rifle.
M-1 Carbs/ War Babys are too expensive to rebarrel today.
 
hdwhit said:
Thank you very much for the link. I would never have thought about intentionally looking for bullets that run .2235.

I agree with you that if the cartridge (and associated rifle) were being re-engineered today, it could be a very different round.

The maximum chamber pressure for the 30 Carbine round is 40,000 psi (or its near equivalent as determined by the copper or lead crushers used at the time). Johnson held to that limit because he was looking to create a system where all you needed to do was:
  • Remove the 30 caliber barrel,
  • Install the 22 caliber barrel,
  • Solder a feedramp onto the receiver
And the rifle was ready to ship out the door. I guess he may have envisioned military sales to poor countries we had given M1 Carbines after World War 2 that were then facing insurgents armed with AK-47s.
Click to expand...


And then the former "Soviet" countries then went with the smaller bullet in the AK 74's!
 
The 5.7 Johnson Spitfire always fascinated me. I collected notes but did not get a rifle.
All the notes I have seen refer to success with .223" diameter bullets in 40 and 45 grain weights and max vel 2800 fps w. 40 bullet.
Lotsa complaints about .224" 50gr bullet giving signs of excess pressure.
Barrels are described as .220" bore with .224" grooves and rates of twist 1 in 12" or 1 in 16" which sound OK for short light 40gr bullets.
 
Carl N. Brown wrote:
I collected notes but did not get a rifle.
Click to expand...

Dodged a bullet on that one (pardon the pun).

Lotsa complaints about .224" 50gr bullet giving signs of excess pressure.
Click to expand...

In my opinion, anyone loading 50 grain bullets into 5.7mm Johnson using the data published in Cartridges of the World was nothing short of suicidal.
 
GBExpat wrote:
I pulled down my Ken Waters Pet Loads tome and checked the ToC for 5.7mm Johnson or .22 Spitfire ... no joy.
Click to expand...

Thank you for taking the time to check.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

H
  • Locked
5.7mm Johnson
Replies
8
Views
729
hdwhit
H
H
  • Locked
5.7 mm Johnson Die Issue (not 5.7x28)
Replies
6
Views
1K
WestKentucky
WestKentucky
H
  • Locked
Need Help From the Wildcat Loaders
Replies
10
Views
501
jmorris
jmorris
H
  • Locked
Back in the Reloading Saddle
Replies
7
Views
512
hdwhit
H
H
  • Locked
The Last 5.7mm Johnson Post (maybe)
Replies
11
Views
801
hdwhit
H
Back
Top