5 shot 12 Gauge 00 Buck vs 30 Round AR15 for Home Defense

[Black Toe Knives]

Which one would you use and why. I chose the 12 Gauge because it released more lead faster. I can send 9 .30 cal. bullets down a hall with one trigger pull. I can follow up with 45 more rounds in four more trigger pulls.

I am thinking about switch to Number 4 Buckshot because 41 rds are better than 9. This will increase my bullet count to 204 rds verses 54 rounds.

Any thoughts on size of Buckshot?

 

[BigMustard]

12 gauge...For a couple reasons.

Number 1, I do not own an AR15

Number 2, I live in an apartment. If I had to fire upon an intruder I would like to keep the collateral damage to a minimum. I keep 000 buck In my 870. I've killed some 150lb+ pigs with a single shot and not much of a struggle with the 000 3'' shells so I think its safe to assume if it can kill a large wild animal an intruder should not be a problem.

Number 3, The maximum distance I would be firing from would be 20-25' down a hallway roughly 4-5' wide. At that distance minimal aiming with the 12 gauge is required.

 

[oneounceload]

Number 3, The maximum distance I would be firing from would be 20-25' down a hallway roughly 4-5' wide. At that distance minimal aiming with the 12 gauge is required.

You still need to aim/point as your pattern will be very small at that distance

 

[Hanzo581]

Shotgun.

 

[Bubba613]

An AR for HD never made a lot of sense to me unless someone is living with a large amount of acreage or something. The noise from a 16" carbine is fairly severe. Add the cost and there is a reason the 12ga pump is a preferred weapon.

 

[atlp99]

AR for me

I choose the AR for a couple of reasons. In order of importance,

1. I shoot the AR better.
2. Easily mounted flashlight.
3. Larger magazine.
4. Lesser building penetration.
5. Better stopping power than a pistol.

All self defense rounds will penetrate multiple walls (especially interior walls) but the AR actually has lesser penetration than many other self defense platforms. You can check out http://www.theboxotruth.com for wall penetration.

Your situation may be different than mine, and everyone has to rate the advantages and disadvantages for their situation.

 

[hardworker]

I'd rather use the shotgun. If five shots of no 4 buck can't fix your predicament, you've got serious problems.

 

[HelterSkelter]

i don't see why you would need a flashlight if you are defending your house, regardless shotguns can mount a flashlight as well. also lead shot is going to overpenetrate a lot less that jacketed rifle bullets.

shotgun is the best choice for home defense, it's a better gun to use in the tight spaces and close quarters of a house. you don't need to shoot 100 yards or penetrate 20 inches of flesh to kill a bad guy in your own home.

 

[Fred Fuller]

We have both available, but there are several riot type 870s out of the safe when we are home- and only one AR. Logic is, we both carry at home, but given the layout of the house we don't want to ever get cut off from easy access to a long gun. Entrances (front and back) are in the middle of the house, there's one bedroom on one end of the house and two bedrooms on the other end. So there are 870s stashed in hidey holes in all the bedrooms, but only one AR. That way we can't be cut off from a long gun, but if the threat is at longer range outside (we live in a rural area on about 20 acres) there's time to get to the AR.

We have no children in the home, and the guns go back in the safe any time both of us are gone. In addition, we have two Filas in the house unless we are gone for extended periods. That's 200 plus pounds of if-I-don't-know-you-I-don't-like-you. In the event of unexpected company that should prove something of a distraction to the intruder(s).

We use Federal LE132-00 in the magazines, with four Brenneke KO slugs in the Sidesaddles in case more range/greater penetration is needed than buckshot allows. I don't like #4 buck, as I prefer to push the buckshot loads out to what I consider the maximum range for buckshot- 25 yards and the smaller pellets loose oomph too fast to suit me. I expect to get patterns inside of a sheet of 8X11 notebook paper at 25 yards, and the Federal FliteControl loads will do it out of the CYL and ImpCyl 18"- 20" barrels on our shotguns. The shotguns here are fitted to my wife, and she can use them ably also. She's in her early 60s, 5'4" and 135 pounds but the properly fitted 12 gauges are not a problem for her. Neither is the AR, as she got sent to Louis Awerbuck's 3-day carbine class for her birthday a couple of years ago, and had run her own AR in 3-gun competition for years before then. We're not overly worried about ammo capacity either way, either long gun will do what we want. BTW, the AR here has two 20-round magazines on board, one in the magazine well and one in a pouch on the stock.

Clint Smith says the advantage of shotguns is that they can physically remove meat and bone. I agree, I have seen it done on the street as an EMT. I like shotguns, grew up shooting them, have a lifetime of experience with them plus some good professional training as well. I think there is no better defensive weapon than a good repeating shotgun, in trained and experienced hands.

I also think a person should use whatever firearm they are best/most confident with for home defense, no matter what that is- handgun, shotgun or rifle. Same goes for ammo choices. Whatever you want your firearm/ammo combination to accomplish, you should work to find what does best what you want done.

hth,

lpl

 

[jon86]

I've gone back and forth about this myself as well, and I am interested in what others do and what others have to say. Anyways, I have both ready, magazines loaded chamber empty. The one that I pick up first will probably be the shotgun, for the simple fact that I can shoulder it and rack the slide faster than I can shoulder the AR and chamber a round. Does anyone else feel that the shotgun simply shoulders quicker? It sort of "jumps" to the shoulder, ready to rock and roll. I cannot say the same for the AR 15. If I knew that a fight was coming I'd use the AR though, but surprise in the middle of the night, the shotgun.

 

[txhoghunter]

Blacktoe, unless you are living on the amount of land that Lee is, I would suggest the 870 with No. 4 buckshot. More pellets, and less penetration.

As far as mobility goes, you can make an argument for either provided the AR you are speaking of is a 16" barrel carbine.

Even if you want to use the 12 ga as your primary HD gun, it would not hurt to keep the AR with some good HD rounds (e.g. Hornady TAP) and practice with it. IMO its never a bad idea to have a back up firearm handy.

Just my 2 cents

 

[2WheelsGood]

I can send 9 .30 cal. bullets down a hall with one trigger pull. I can follow up with 45 more rounds in four more trigger pulls.

Shhhh... some politician will see that and realize it's "high capacity".

But seriously, definitely the shotgun for me. The walls in the houses around here are too thin to risk it.

 

[Black Toe Knives]

Someone mentioned a mounted flashlight. I would never recommend a flashlight on HD weapon. You have the upper advantage in your home, you know where everything is even in complete darkness. Flashlight only tell an intruder where you are. It is okay if he see the shotgun flash. When we sleep in our house. Every light is out. No night light. No lamps left one. Every door is shut. When someone enters my house they have to take a chance of what door I am behind. Our strategy is we both pick up our shotgun that are lean against our bedposts and take aim at our door. That is 400 plus rounds in less than 5 seconds going thought the door.

 

[Black Toe Knives]

BTW I own a AR 15 w 30 round clips.

 

[2WheelsGood]

Someone mentioned a mounted flashlight. I would never recommend a flashlight on HD weapon.

I disagree. First, you don't always HAVE to turn it on. Second, a really bright light can be an awesome weapon in itself. Assume, the "perp" has a knife or crowbar; a 300 lumen light is so painful to look at, they just might turn the other way.

 

[smince]

Both have their pros and cons.

Personally, I like a rifle or carbine for the fact that it allows a more precise shot that the shotgun.

On the noise side, yes an AR will be extremely loud indoors. A 12ga won't exactly be an intimate whisper.

 

[BigMustard]

On the noise side, yes an AR will be extremely loud indoors. A 12ga won't exactly be an intimate whisper.

Table 1. SHOTGUN NOISE DATA (DECIBEL AVERAGES)
.410 Bore 28" barrel 150dB
26" barrel 150.25dB
18 _" barrel 156.30dB
20 Gauge 28" barrel 152.50dB
22" barrel 154.75dB
12 Gauge 28" barrel 151.50dB
26" barrel 156.10dB
18 _" barrel 161.50dB

Table 2. CENTERFIRE RIFLE DATA
.223, 55GR. Commercial load 18 _" barrel 155.5dB
.243 in 22" barrel 155.9dB
.30-30 in 20" barrel 156.0dB
7mm Magnum in 20" barrel 157.5dB
.308 in 24" barrel 156.2dB
.30-06 in 24" barrel 158.5dB
.30-06 in 18 _" barrel 163.2dB
.375 — 18" barrel with muzzle brake 170 dB

Table 3. CENTERFIRE PISTOL DATA
.25 ACP 155.0 dB
.32 LONG 152.4 dB
.32 ACP 153.5 dB
.380 157.7 dB
9mm 159.8 dB
.38 S&W 153.5 dB
.38 Spl 156.3 dB
.357 Magnum 164.3 dB
.41 Magnum 163.2 dB
.44 Spl 155.9 dB
.45 ACP 157.0 dB
.45 COLT 154.7 dB

According to http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml there is not much difference. And it looks as if the 12 gauge is slightly louder.

 

[Black Toe Knives]

I disagree. First, you don't always HAVE to turn it on. Second, a really bright light can be an awesome weapon in itself. Assume, the "perp" has a knife or crowbar; a 300 lumen light is so painful to look at, they just might turn the other way.

You have to have the flashlight on to know if he has Crowbar, Knife or a Gun, to know if you can blind him with your flashlight to stop him.

You definitely need a flash light so you can aim your AR 15.

You flash a 300 lumen light at me. I am closing my eyes and sending bullets your way.

 

[Black Toe Knives]

Both have their pros and cons.

Personally, I like a rifle or carbine for the fact that it allows a more precise shot that the shotgun.

On the noise side, yes an AR will be extremely loud indoors. A 12ga won't exactly be an intimate whisper.

41 shots in 12'' area in center mass or one shot in very exact area on center mass, take careful aim though your scope in the dark and place one very accurate shot though the heart. I can see how the other 40 shots are just a waste.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

As of right now, I prefer the AR-15. But that's because I just got a new shotgun and I don't know how to use it yet, it's preferred load, whether it's reliable, etc. My new house has longer fields of fire than my present, where I use my .45ACP EDC for defense. I will have all three, but I think I am going to find that the absolute loudest, the shotgun, is going to be best. Not that loudness matters much, all are over 150dB, and therefore deafening. I'm hoping that if I ever need it, there'll be time to don e-muffs for at least some protection. But then, how many of us are going to be worried about hearing in those seconds of need? I'm guessing those of us that have lost considerable hearing already are the only ones that think of that.

 

[Varob]

My go-to HD weapon is my 870 w/ mounted light.

BTW: If you don't know how to use a weapon with a light, you might want to seek training.

 

[Quaamik]

I guess I'm strange here - I rely on a pistol for HD most of the time. I've had long guns loaded for HD in the past. After really thinking about possible scenarios, the only one I can think I'd need it for (where I could use it) would be a home invasion by armored attackers while I was awake in bed.

If it comes down to where you have to choose a long gun, I'd go with a bullpup in .223 if you can afford it, the shortest possible legal AR as second choice, a pistol caliber carbine as third and the classic pump 12 gauge as last - only if you were very tight on money.

Reasons:

- Capacity: Few would choose a 5 shot revolver as thier only home defense weapon if they could afford better, yet you have the same capacity with most pump shotguns. Yes, the shotgun has more power. But what is it we say when debating calibers ..... oh yeah, SHOT PLACEMENT. Capacity is there in case you miss, fail to stop your attacker or you have multiple assailents. The shotguns power only helps with one of those. 30 rounds on tap, or even 8 - 10 in a lever action .357, is a better cushion.

- Speed of second shot: No one can pump out shot with a shotgun as fast as with semi auto .223. And a pump shotgun is hard put to keep up with a lever action .357 due to recoil. And don't try to say a shotgun puts 9 "bullets" downrange with one trigger pull - each of those "bullets" is about equal to a .32 FMJ. Those pellets are devistating when a bunch hit at once - only. And they will at household ranges - shot pattern spread at indoor ranges is seldom as much as 8 inches, often it's half that.

- Penetration: Hollowpoint .223s will penetrate fewer layers of drywall than buckshot pellets will - forget about slugs. At the same time, a .223 will go through soft body armor that will stop a 12 gauge.

 

[txgunsuscg]

I will leave the discussion of flashlights on weapons for another thread (especially if you want to start one). As for shotgun vs AR: 00 Buck and 62 gr. FMJ will over-penetrate. If you intend to use an AR in your house, find home defense hollow point ammo or use frangible. That will lessen your risk, but not entirely remove it. For the shotgun, I've seen a study somewhere that says No 4 is the best for defense, but I can't remember where I saw it.

 

[Guns and more]

When in doubt, get a Saiga 12. Basically an AK-47 for 12 ga.
15 round magazines.

But, for me, I'd never choose an AR for close work. The round has too much energy and will punch through walls too easily. Too easy to miss and kill your neighbor.

I go shotgun, but IMO, a .410 is a better choice.

 

[egg250]

Home defense: 12 gauge pump. Rugged, easy to use and reliable. Close your eyes, picture in your mind's eye, being a bad guy in the dark breaking into someone's house. Now picture hearing the sound of the homeowner working the action of a pump shotgun. Now picture yourself running away because you've just made brown stains in your shorts.

I've been qualifying with the M-16A2 service rifle for 20 years and I would not describe the sound of chambering a round in one "intimidating".