Pump vs. Semi speed - 00 buck for home defense

[benellimax4]

I did two informal tests today with my 870 and Benelli M2 to address the speed of semiauto shotgun vs a pump gun for home defense.

Q: I know a semiauto is much faster than a pump with birdshot. But, is it much faster with 00 buck?

If I wanted to be completely scientific, I would have done this multiple times, at different distances, and with multiple shooters. However, I think a general conclusion can be formed.

1. Pump vs Semi - 7.5 birdshot

2. Pump vs Semi - 00 buckshot, Federal LE-127

The Benelli was much faster with birdshot (duh) on a 3 round test at 7 yards on 3 targets. 2.1 seconds vs. 2.9 seconds. No surprise here.

With 00 buckshot, the Benelli was only slightly faster. 3.6 seconds vs. 3.9 seconds.

CONCLUSION:

More tests need to be done. However, I think I have convinced myself that the speed advantage of a semi auto vs. a pump starts to go away when full power 00 Buck is used. Why? Recoil. The shot to shot delay getting back on target due to the recoil of 00 buck starts to negate the mechanical speed advantage of the semiauto.

Has anyone else run their own tests?

 

[Cryogaijin]

Depends on the semi platform. Some absorb more recoil than others, and I know that I can dump a 20 round drum through my saiga far faster than I can dump 8 rounds through my 870.

 

[benellimax4]

Have you done this with 00 buck? Dumping rounds is pointless. I am talking about putting 00 BUCKSHOT on several targets.

When you use 00 buck, the gap between semi auto and pump closes.

 

[Chopdoktor]

I don't know if Cryogaijin has, but I did it a weekend ago, and I'd still take my Saiga 12 over my 870 for speed, every time. I was using 2 3/4" 00 buck, made by Fiocchi. I was shooting at 2 elevated 4x2 targets. I can get 3 shots to every one shot of 870, speedwise, on an individual target (as in, 3 shots on target and recover to shoot again). The 'swing time' in between targets is faster for my lighter 870 than it is on the Saiga, but that's made up for in no time, due to rate-of-fire. (It may or may not be worth noting that I have the recoil-reducing Knoxx Specops stock on the 870, and the Saiga 12 is converted to original configuration with pistol grip and stock; both have 18.5" barrels). With these platforms, enhanced with certain recoil-reducing characteristics, it just goes back down to the semi-auto action being faster than pump.

 

[benellimax4]

Point taken. Maybe I should expand my classifications of shotguns?

1. Pump guns
2. Semi auto tube fed shoguns
3. Saigas

I have never fired a Saiga shotgun. But, they sound like they are revolutionary.

P.S. That being said, for home defense, I think I would not be willing to trade rate of fire for speed on target. Up close with a shotgun, the guy that gets the first hit will probably be the one that survives.

 

[chrome_austex]

Interesting that the 00 buck wasn't much faster in the semiauto, but you're right, it makes sense.

With birdshot, nearly 2/3 the time is a hell of a competitive advantage.

I'm still partial to my 870P, which hasn't let me down. I've seen Saiga choke on ammo, and I've seen 870 expresses choke on ammo too (cheap birdshot). I know the pump gun is a bit slower, but its sleek and it eats everything. Its definitely going to take more practice time to reach a given speed as a benelli at two to three times it's cost, however you can shoot pretty freakin fast with a pump gun if you work at it. Really, I need one of each.

 

[Cryogaijin]

But, they sound like they are revolutionary.

Hardly. They're AK 47s in 12 gauge. Here's a picture of mine:
The action significantly reduces felt recoil over a pump style, getting you back on target quicker. And YES I am talking about 9 pellet 00 high brass buck, just what you see in the 12 round drum in the photo.

I've seen Saiga choke on ammo

Yup, they can be picky. Without a little modification they really don't like cheap bulk birdshot. OTOH people reporting issues with buck is rare.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Point taken. Maybe I should expand my classifications of shotguns?

1. Pump guns
2. Semi auto tube fed shoguns
3. Saigas

I have never fired a Saiga shotgun. But, they sound like they are revolutionary.

P.S. That being said, for home defense, I think I would not be willing to trade rate of fire for speed on target. Up close with a shotgun, the guy that gets the first hit will probably be the one that survives.

You might even consider expanding it to separate gas and recoil operated semi-auto shotguns. While my experience with the recoil operated Benelli showed it was very fast, it also transmitted a lot of the recoil to the shooter. When I compared it to the FN SLP, I found that it's action speed was very comparable, but that it's ability to soak up recoil made it much faster to shoot accurately (on steel) with buckshot.

I've found that the largest determining factor in rapid shooting is recovery from the recoil of the prior shot...that is, in my experience, where it becomes Advantage to gas operated semi-auto

 

[Girodin]

You might even consider expanding it to separate gas and recoil operated semi-auto shotguns

Exactly with my gas guns the difference is more substantial in favor of the autos. An inertia gun has much more felt recoil and is not a platform I would generalize/extrapolate to other autos from IMHO.

 

[Youngster]

I personally find that if anything, the semi's speed advantage increases with harder kicking loads, since you can take advantage of the added control of a fixed foreend. The recoil dampening effect of most semi designs is gravy.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I've actually found that the sliding fore end of the pump more helpful in counteraction muzzle rise.

I use the initial rearward impulse to rack the slide to the rear and my forward chambering stroke to bring the barrel back onto target...isn't that how others were trained to operate a pump action shotgun?

 

[Youngster]

I've actually found that the sliding fore end of the pump more helpful in counteraction muzzle rise.

I use the initial rearward impulse to rack the slide to the rear and my forward chambering stroke to bring the barrel back onto target...isn't that how others were trained to operate a pump action shotgun?

I was, however with a semi, you've got an inherently firmer {and often less "stretched"} grip and no need to "shake" the gun between shots so muzzle movement should be less of an issue to begin with and more easily compensated for.

I've noticed a lot of shooters who are used to a pump and inexperienced with a semi, who if given a semi will still mentally run it at pump gun speeds not realizing that they're dealing with a different animal.

 

[zhyla]

Just got back from a tactical shotgun match. It was a mix of Benelli M1's, M4's, and your usual pump guns. The Benellis were with out a doubt at a speed advantage when targets were close together. The advantage was less so otherwise. In real life where you have to acquire/identify a target instead of just shooting every steel plate as fast as possible I really doubt it's much of an advantage. Nice guns though.

On the other hand, 2 out of 4 of the Benellis jammed at some point. Probably cheap ammo is partially to blame, but it's one less thing to worry about with a pump.

One pump gun did have a problem though... a Mossberg 500's barrel came unwelded from the magazine thingy. Brand new barrel too, never been fired. Weird!

 

[benellimax4]

When a semi auto shotgun has a malfunction, it can be very time consuming to fix. When a pump gun has problems, it is usually a short shuck or some variation of a short shuck. The fix is much faster ... just pump again and shoot.

 

[Kendal Black]

Comparisons are dubious without numbers from timers. The first post had some numbers. More would be welcome.

Certainly those using shotguns in combat simulation games have gravitated to the autoloaders. One asks whether this is due to the nature of the simulations, rather than the nature of combat.

The military tried to switch to an autoloader but was caught on the wrong foot by events, and still fields a great many pump guns. There has been no great hue and cry that I have heard, from servicepersons handed a pump instead of the Benelli.

More research with numbers attached is in order.

If nothing else, the military should go to autoloader shotguns for common operating methods with nearly everything else in the inventory--a training issue.

 

[benellimax4]

It is hard to judge when the games use birdshot instead of buck.

 

[Cryogaijin]

If nothing else, the military should go to autoloader shotguns for common operating methods with nearly everything else in the inventory--a training issue.

You mean like the AA-12?

 

[earlthegoat2]

I think if anyone did a side by side test of any gas gun vs. any Benelli "Inertia" gun they might find themselves selling that Benelli.

DAMHIK