50 cal Machine gun on sloop vs. 38 gun frigate... who would win?

[yooper_sjd]

well, hate to say this, and possibley the only person to say so after reading all the posts. It would work out to be dead even.

I am retired Navy, and a GUNNERSMATE! I know i have shot well in excess of 200k in my twenty years, and the .50 M2 was my baby! Shot from rolling decks and even keel.

When it comes to the frigate, her smaller guns topside would have been 1 and 2 lb swivel guns that could have shot ball, or heated shot. these guns were able to be aimed, unlike the the mounted deck guns of the era that would be shot in salvo in hopes of hit with the variety of elevations to get the range. but just to cut it short and not long winded, it would be a draw, 38 plus gun (including swivel guns topside on the rails) verses the one bow mounted .50

 

[SnWnMe]

Our GMs on the USS Anchorage, using M2s and 60s, failed to sink the killer tomato on Family Day cruise.

 

[yooper_sjd]

but i wasn't on the anchorage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
uss forrest sherman
uss pugent sound
uss harlan county
uss orion
uss oak hill

 

[tellner]

Another possibility...

If the .50 were a Barrett a good marksman could take out the Captain and other senior officers as well as the bosun one at a time pretty quickly. At that point the frigate becomes a lot less effective.

 

[Caimlas]

The tactic of a swoop was always to get in close to a frigate (ie 'swoop' in) or other larger ship as fast as possible while maneuvering to avoid incoming gunfire, and then engage the ship as far inside the ship's turning radius as possible - ie, akin to standing by the driver's side window while he tries to turn and hit you. Except you're a track star, and the car is some slow, low-acceleration Euro import. Usually you'd want one or two sloops, IIRC, as a single ship presented too easy a target to keep in sights; two made getting closer much easier for both.

So basically, you're going to decimate the enemy with a .50 cal on a swoop. Especially with HE rounds.

 

[Shaughn Leayme]

If a sloop, which is armed with pop guns (4 pounder cannons) wants to try and swoop in on a frigate, which for all it's size is just as nimble and usually as fast as the sloop, it won't really matter, they will be hammered into kindling in a short period of time.

A sloop was ideally suited to the scouting role and transporting dispatches and as coastal patrol vessel's and for use by revenue men and pirates and smugglers, it's shallow draft , small size and light weight allowed it to go places that a larger ship like a frigate, cannot go. It was a capable commerce raider though, since many merchant men carried a very light amount of iron, because a gun deck, used up valuable cargo space and guns and gunners weren't cheap and most merchant men were slow, they were designed for cargo carrying, not speed and I imagine 8 knots would be a top speed for some. Most sloops were capable of 14 knots.

Those advantages are also the reason, one would not go up against a Frigate in it, even if there was 3 or 4 of them, they just lacked the iron to do serious damage and they lacked the crew to board a frigate and their light construction would result in a cannon ball from even a 12 pounder, being able to punch right thru them from one side to another, were they close enough to try and press any kind of effective attack.

A Barrett rifle and sniping at sea......It takes great skill to use one on dry land (at long range), which is not riding up and down and maybe with a slight roll to it at the same time, trying to hit a target that will also be obscured by rigging and sail, also plunging up and down.....

In a way we are pitting a flower class corvette of WWII against a battle cruiser and we all know what the outcome of that fight would be and in some cases was.

Flower Class Corvette
950 tons
205 feet long
16 knts maximum
95 crew
1 4 inch gun
1 2 pdr AA
2 20 mm single barrel AA

Gneisenau Class Battle Cruiser
31,552 tonnes
235 feet long
33 knts max
1968 crew
9 x 11 inch
12 x 5.9 inch
14 x 4 inch
16 x 37 mm AA
38 x 20 mm AA
6 x 21 inch torpedo's

Admiral Hipper Class Heavy Cruiser
14,227 Tonnes
206 feet long
32.5 knts
1600 crew
8 x 8 inch
12 x 4 inch
17 x 40 mm
8 x 37 mm
28 x 20 mm
12 x 21 inch torpedo's

 

[oneshooter]

There are several "sloop" types. One is the civilian 2 or 3 masted, light weight vessel which carried 4-8 light guns for self defence.

A "sloop of war" was a totally diffrent animal. Three masted and square rigged it it carried between 10 and 20 large bore cannon, a mix of cannon and carronades, 12-20lb. The USS Constellation, which carried 25 cannon.
She was launched in 1854, and is a floating museum today.
25 guns:
• 16 × 8 inch (203 mm) chambered shell guns
• 4 × 32 pounder (15 kg) long guns
• 1 × 20 pounder (9 kg) Parrott rifle
• 1 × 30 pounder (14 kg) Parrott rifle
• 3 × 12 pounder (5 kg) bronze boat howitzers

Typical rigging of a 32 pounder "Long Tom"

Civilian trading sloop

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

 

[Shaughn Leayme]

True enough, but those were later developments, mostly brought into service after 1830's. The gun's were getting better all the time and tactics were evolving and the US Navy was actually right behind the French as far as Naval inovations were concerned.

Up to 1800- 1820, the standard was more or less as we were discussing previous, with exceptions, but given the scenario as originally presented and the time frame, you would be more likely to encounter the earlier type of Sloop of War.

There are a lot of good books out there on the subject and if you are lucky enough to get down to several of the maritime museums, you can stay there for hours (bring a towel to wipe up the drool )

 

[oneshooter]

Got a GREAT museum near here, I volunteer as a guide. It is the only surviving WW1 battleship in the world, the USS Texas!!

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

 

[Shaughn Leayme]

Lucky you!!!

I hope this year to have more time to make it to some museums and I have an invite from a friend of my father, to come and look at a private collection of naval guns, falcons and swivels up to a 42 pounder and some more modern stuff and if they are doing a "show" I might even get to see a few of them fired

Biggest pre 1900 gun, I have fired and loaded and sighted was a 12 pounder Napolean and a breech loading Whitworth and a mountain howitzer, though the mortars are spectacular, it is the long guns that I really like.

 

[earplug]

Boarded the Texas

Visited the Texas years ago. Was A double treat as I was A post War II Iron Ranger of 1-16th Inf. Texas and 1-16 were at Normandy D Day.
I was the BN master Gunner, trained solders to fire M2's.
I think the Frigate can be taken. Plunging fire from the fifty will pierce the main deck.
Don' forget the advantage of a free gun compared to a gunport. Think Moniter verse the Merrimack.
Can I have a J Class Sloop?

 

[Shaughn Leayme]

Like this one?

www.jclassyachts.com look under endeavour

A gun in a port was still able to traverse in a limited fashion and captains and gunners were known to do it, but it was a new way to look at naval gunnery and it took time for the techniques to be developed.

If anything the British Navy were like any other entity and they did not like change, it took a sound thrashing at the hands of the young American Navy for them to realize they were losing the race for supremacy on the open sea's and they began to adapt and catch up.

There was a growth spurt or if you will an arms race in the early part of the 19 th century, with France actually leading the way, with America not too far behind, then the British, in the end the British won out.

Anyhoo back to the topic at hand, we still come back to range and capabilities of both ships, the limited arcs of fire available to the 50 and range of cannons and the frigate's construction.

I actually like this thread, get to talk about a favorite subject......and it is a gun of a sort

 

[SnWnMe]

Sniping in the open sea. That's a good one.

 

[SnWnMe]

This business of sloops overwhelming frigs with 2 to 1 fights is good also.

The USS Constitution CAPTURED two British men of war off Madeira in 1815 after beating them both down with superior seamanship and gunnery.

 

[ozarkhillbilly]

About a year ago on TV I watched a cannon shoot off of different cannons from the 1800s and the winner then went up against the US army with the army’s newest light weight 105mm. While the 105 would by far outrange the 1800s guns they chose a target out at I believe was 500 to 600 yards. It was a 4x8 plywood sheet, and the crew with the old gun hit it dead on every shot, but the Army never had a direct hit with their modern 105mm.

While we are talking about at sea and longer ranges, the sailors of the day practiced and where good at what they did. It has been stated several times that it only takes on good shot from the frigate to kill the M2, but it will take hundreds if not thousands to do any real damage to the frigate. While I am not a expert I would not think that shooting a 50cal on any US Navy ship would be anywhere close to shooting one on sloop of that era, unless it was some sort of light PT boat.

Don' forget the advantage of a free gun compared to a gunport. Think Moniter verse the Merrimack. Neither ship won that engagement, both retired in the evening leaving it a draw. What the Moniter and then the Dreadnaught gave us was, that the advantage of gun turrets was the ability to have bigger guns far bigger, not ease of movement. Which the frigate would have over the sloop.


One question to anybody that might know, do incinerators have the same range as AP ammo.

 

[SnWnMe]

While the 50 maybe able to traverse, it is not as stable on its pintle as the guns on the Monitor's turrets. Also the range of the Merrimack/Monitor fight was very close.

The problem of shooting a 50 on a pintle mount on the high seas against a frig at standoff range is that

the gun has no sophisticated sights (those nice dial sights are useless at sea)

the gun is jumping up and down (imagine that you are offroading in a Jeep)

the target is far, far away by necessity for your survival and thus is small.

the gun, in bouncing, describes variations in aiming which is BIGGER than the size of the target on the horizon

firing the gun doesn't help with aim and accuracy (now you're offroading on a Jeep and firing a 50 cal and trying to stay on target)

the frig is faster and can close to bring the fight to you while you cannot put enough lead into it quick enough to stop it (machine guns don't pour lead into neat devastating rows like they do in the movies)

I'm not even taking into consideration the fact that the frig can throw (heavy) rounds well outside the 50's real world effective range.

 

[CrazyIrishman]

I'm still gonna stick with the frigate!


1)The frigate has more cannon of a larger size (and longer range)
2)frigate has better construction (can take more of a pounding)
3)frigate captains are usually much more experienced

Instead of crossing the stern of the frigate with the sloop like some have mentioned, suppose the frigate did it instead and let loose with a broadside, came about, then dismasted the sloop. GAME OVER!

As I mentioned earlier it wouldn't take a full broad side to hit in order to cause problems.

OR.....a worst case scenario


I'll put a M61 Vulcan in for a bow chaser! LOL!

 

[Erinyes]

The USS Constitution CAPTURED two British men of war off Madeira in 1815 after beating them both down with superior seamanship and gunnery.

No, she captured a British 5th rate (32 gun) frigate and a sloop. Not even Old Ironsides would've been able to stand up to one 1st or 2nd rate, and even one 3rd or 4th rate would've been a challenge (The Connie was a 4th rate), let alone two.

 

[SnWnMe]

A Man of War is a generic name for an armed naval vessel. This is broken down into rates but the name does not exclusively apply to ships the size of HMS Victory. The Constitution captured the frigate Cyane (24 guns) and the sloop Levant (18 guns). You must be thinking of the Java (32 guns, actually 38 when she faced Ironsides) or Guerriere (32 guns).

Merriam Webster

http://m-w.com/dictionary/man of war

Some nautical site

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/bb/bb_naut.html

 

[Sistema1927]

I voted for the fact that is questions like this that make THR such an interesting place, and I have not been disappointed.

So far, I think that the frigate is winning out over the sloop. Hearts of Oak.

 

[Erinyes]

No, I was thinking of the Cyane, but the first page I found on her said she was a 32 gun frigate. I probably should've kept digging.

Still, the point is that while capturing two ships at once is quite impressive, both ships combined still didn't equal the Constitution's tonnage or armament.

And for the record, I think a decent sized frigate is going to turn the .50 armed sloop into so much floating debris.

 

[Jeff Timm]

I suspect you underestimate the power of the phosporus compounds to ignite fires. The war load for a .50 is every round an incendiary, or API, or tracer.

Ball is for practice.

The incendiary compound scatters and starts multiple fires, people who get hit by it are generally no longer concerned with anything except putting out the fire, which is NOT EASY. Hitting a target with a .50 is not extreamly difficult, cross reference WWII PT boats.

Geoff
Who would ideally wait until the frigate was hove to near an island, and move the .50 ashore to a vantage point and send plunging fire down into the magazine.

 

[Shaughn Leayme]

The warload in an incendiary or API round as you put it is small.

The compound is generally around 32 - 34 grs, if memory serves.

Another point that occured to me today, was that the trace element used in the 50 caliber rounds burned out somewhere after 1600 yards, granted it has been along time since I played with an M2 with tracers, so I don't know if this is still the case, but if it is, this would make engagement beyond 1600 yards harder.

The biggest factor with the .50 at sea in this situation is range, we are not within 500 yards of a target, but 2000 yards, because the sloop is trying to keep from becoming flotsam, this and the motion of the ship and the actions taken to avoid the frigate trying to maneuver to a position of advantage, will degrade the accuracy and overall effectiveness of the M2 and the 50 caliber in this situation.

There is difficulties with dealing with a fire at sea, but then again, trying to put out a 18/24 or 32 pound hot shot, would present an equally hard task.

 

[Cosmoline]

Great question! I've wondered about it myself. The sloop o' war with the .50 up front has the advantage of being able to fire without presenting a broadside, and has a much flatter shooting projectile. The .50 would essentially work as a super accurate chaser. But at close quarters or given the right wind situation the frigate would still rip the sloop apart. The .50's advantage would be on the long chase or in still air, but it wouldn't be too good for sniping people. For one thing most of them would be below decks. For another they're hard targets and everything is constantly moving and pitching.

The superior tactic would be to target heavy .50 ball at the MASTS. It has enough juice to cut through, and a few hits would start doing serious damage. Once unmasted, the frigate is a useless tub.

I think some folks here don't really understand what a Napoleonic cannon could do! A "mere" smoothbore 32 pounder sent out MASSIVE iron ball at supersonic speeds and could hit targets many nautical miles away. A whole broadside of them could rip a ship to shreds, sending hardwood shrapnel out with enough force to rend skin from bone and pierce the heart.

 

[dm1333]

Cosmoline,
Given that we are talking about a frigate and sloop from the 1812 era the frigate would have an advantage in light winds because she can set a lot more sail and much higher up. A sloop using modern technology would be a different story. The sloop will be limited to the main sail, jibs and staysails and maybe some type of a topsail set above the gaff. Not only can the frigate set a lot more sail they can launch more boats to tow the ship than a sloop could.