51' smithy help? (likely to be moved)

[Macmac]

I have a colt ASM 1851 clone here currently for repair. This isn't mine.

This gun has other than ASM parts in it, and the cylinder lock bolt is one of these "other" parts.

At this point time is set, but the bolt is not unlocking, also the bolt where it passes thru the frame is not yet trimmed.

If anyone has a like gun, I would like to hear/read about the shape the lug is poking thru the frame.

Is your lug level if the frame is held with no barrel and no clyinder, with you looking dead on and the gun is held straight facing you?

Trying to be more clear, I will try to rephrase this.

If the gun were clamped in a ordinary vise in a like shooting possition, level with Earth, is the lock lug also about level with Earth?

OR is the lug in a similar angle to the curve aligned with the frame?

I will try to make this more clear too.

With the gun in a vise as above, is the lug following the angle cut in the frame as relief for the cylinder?

There is no need for the vise, as I am just trying to make a mental picture.

.......................................................................................................
In the smithing area there isn't much on any BP guns, so thinking this would get better attention at first I put this here... I suspect it will be moved.

 

[Im283]

bump, cause it is my revolver!

 

[mykeal]

I recently acquired an ASM Walker. Dont' know if it will do any good but I'll take a look at the bolt shape and relationship to the frame when I strip it down later this week. It's a 10 year old gun but appears unfired so it's likely to have original ASM parts in it.

 

[Macmac]

Thank You mykeal. I have my own ideas on this, but I would like to bang hads on the subject some.

I have an 1860 EMF clone I built as a kit.. That is level with Earth..

Im283 saw fit to send this to me as he says.. I didn't want to offer up the who incase he had other views on the subject.

 

[Old Fuff]

Note that the bolt is not centered in the frame, but offset to the right. Since the cylinder is round the top of the bolt should be slightly angled. If it is flat you won't get full engagement on one side of the notch. As there will be (in theory) some engagement the cylinder may be "slightly locked," but it won't last for long as the notch gets peened and the edge gets rounded.

I've lost count of the bolts I've replaced because someone decided that the top of the ball was crooked and filed it flat. :banghead:

To add: On a Colt open top revolver, the cylinder bolt should start to drop as soon as the hammer is rotated backwards. Otherwise as the hand starts to push on the cylinder's ratchet everything will stop unless the bolt has dropped far enough to unlatch the cylinder. You may have a problem because the bolt isn't dropping early enough, or the hand is too long. These problems are not unusual if someone has bought parts - not necessarily related to the revolver's manufacturer - and just dropped them in.

 

[Im283]

I will chime in since its my gun.

The gun shot fine with the hand that is in it. there were some contributing issues with the hand and I believe Mac has fixed that. The cylinder bolt is for a pietta gun. I tried to no avail to get ASM parts and settled on others to try it. So I do not think the hand is too long. Though the hand is not the original I believe it is the same length as I recall. Mac has the original for comparison. The only difference is the peg on the hand that fits in the hammer is slightly smaller. I believe mac resolved that issue.

Well that is all i have to add.

Fluff I think you helped greatly describing the angle of the bolt.

 

[Macmac]

Old Fluff I agree, but in this case the hand turns to full cock and aligns.

However with the gun as one, the timing is such, that the bolt lug does not drop out and the action seizes as it is.

I am seeking full lock, but having the cylinder move.

What I have now is at hammer cocking the hand tries to turn the cylinder, and since the lug hasn't dropped enough it just locks the whole action.

The bolt is a unknown make, but a very nice quailty part. The orginal bolt broke at some point in time.

Another bolt like the one I have was installed, but not correctly. This 2nd bolt was drilled to fit the pin screw, and altered to work as I understand it, but it falied to work for long.

The 2nd bolt hit the frame where the frame turns up and jumped off the hammer cam, which in turn with use, and time damaged the hammer cam, because the bolt hit the frame where at best it is difficult to see.

Since then with a 3rd bolt, seeing this I cut a relief so the bolt can't hit the frame, and welded a little bit of stainless steel, which is harder than the hammer, and I hope soaked in a little carbon, to the cam lug, and shapped that to retain the hammer cam follower, and it does not slide off sideways before half cock anymore.

At first I thought I needed to add more metal in another weld, but there is 0.0015" clearance between the bolt follower, and the hammer cam lug now, so there is no room for more metal on the cam lug.

This new 3rd bolt is factory at the lug, and tilted much like the frame, matching the angles perfectly.

Looking at this face on, the left side of the bolt lug, which is very difficult to see, I think maybe 0.004" of this lug is too high.

I am hoping I can get help in figuring this out some. There is just one more new unaltered bolt, but I do have some time invested in this 3rd one now.

Once I drilled a screw pin hole with number drills to just fit the screw, I placed the broken orginal side by side with the bolt I am working up, and could see how much to remove as there was 0.10" sticking up on this 3rd bolt, over the original.

So out came the marker and a scribe, and I cut to the line, with a dremel tipped in diamond, cleaned that with a emory bit, and buffed with medium course rubber abrasives to a near like mirror so as to reduce rusting.

What I don't know is, how to go about measuring where I can't see, and can't reach.

Right now the lug is fully engaged, but I don't think pushing up on the cylinder, when installed and locked.

One way or another the left side of the bolt lug needs to be lower, or the whole lug needs to come down faster.

I have a 1860 EMF Army that compares in action, but no parts are interchangable.

One other thing I can "test" still is that 2nd bolt, which has been altered at the cam follower, the lug, which I did not do, and the relief which I did do, in the attempt to reuse it, and have 2 bolts still as spares which were all sent.

When this was sent Im283 had also shipped every part he had, to include all the broken ones.


Nice puzzel.. I can get this alone by trial by fire but thought it might be better to bang heads, which is more fun anyway.

 

[Old Fuff]

During the 19th century Colt's final assemblers fitted the lockwork in a specific order, which was:

Hammer & trigger
Hand
Bolt

When you replace a part keep in mind that if for example, the relationship between the hammer and bolt is changed, the length of the hand, which was correct before, may not be right in combination with the new bolt.

Or whatever... :banghead:

Remember, it is O.K. to lower the height of the bolt's ball (the part that sticks up through the frame) so long as you maintain the correct angle. You can also cut down the ledge at the front of the bolt, which will tip the bolt's tail down toward the hammer's lug to get faster unlocking. At this point the ball may be too high, but it can be lowered as described above. If it will make you feel any better, working your way up to the job of final assembler at Colt's usually took years...

 

[Macmac]

Hammer worked with the trigger fine..
Hand needed a little help as the new replaced hand I did not do has a too small boss, so I made a circle shim of steel to take up the slack, something like an eyelet in boot lace holes.

Hammer, hand and shim function pefectly.

The hammer cam to bolt follower wasn't working, as the follower fell off the cam lug, before half cock could be reached.

Weld up can lug and fit.

I had already discovered the bolt pivoted untill it hit the frame which caused the damage to the cam on the hammer.

SO last in order is the bolt lug, but how the heck is this done?

What did "They" do, to fit these "right"?

(A little on me
I have built numerouse BP kits, made lock parts for flinters, fixed broken V springs for flinters while at Voo in camp fires as a forge.

The 1860 was a EMF kit. I have a total home build .62 cal flinter with some siler lock parts as bought, but not all the lock is siler.

I was a foreign car tech 25 + years, and do all my own work now.

Once I was given a Win model 100? Not to keep, as it was more than totally taken apart and in boxes with other gun parts, because a real smith took it apart for blueing and instead blew town. I was asked to try and reasemble it and did.

I worked on a 12 Ga side by side that had 2 triggers and doubled at the pull of either one and fixed it.

I do alot of custom work on motor bike engines.

I am not trying to be bragging, but more show this is no more than details in metal to me. I feel a little strange saying these things, but if I don't, no one will understand.

I do Trade Silver in real silver both sterling from sheet, and from coin, at what most folks consider Museum quality, all with home made tools.
I do light forge work too, for 1700-1840.

I still have all my car trade tooling, which is SAE, Metric and British Std.

LOL why I even have for gun only screw drivers! That's low huh? But I hope Im283 will back up here that in this transaction I have been honest, and humble at the same time. I'll let him do that.

But all I need if I need anything is the right tech. I know I can guess my way to a decent fix, at atleast semi proffesional way.

I agree the problem right now is with the bolt, and the height, possibly the angle.

With this done right Im283 gets his shooter back!

Ina bit I am going to have a harder look at the 2nd bolt, installed for grins and see what happens then... I'll get some facts in numbers between the top of this 2nd bolt and the top of this still at factory number 3 bolt. By eye there is over 0.10" now!!

 

[Macmac]

Remember, it is O.K. to lower the height of the bolt's ball (the part that sticks up through the frame) so long as you maintain the correct angle. You can also cut down the ledge at the front of the bolt, which will tip the bolt's tail down toward the hammer's lug to get faster unlocking. At this point the ball may be too high, but it can be lowered as described above. If it will make you feel any better, working your way up to the job of final assembler at Colt's usually took years...

Now we're cookin' with gas! That is exactly what I was looking for, and not one but two things.

I knew to cut the "ball", but I had no idea about that trick to cut the ledge!

So here are the facts..

The orginal is 0.242 heavy or what i would call .2425"

The one in the gun as it came so the 2nd bolt is 0.263"

The one I am working with is uncut, at 0.271" at factory specs.

All measurements with the mic (old fashioned "C" clamp thang) the bolt is falt up on the bottom side. The high points are where ever on the "ball" is the highest point.


The 2nd bolt will not duck the frame at half cock, and the bolt follower is damaged and so thinner. My feeling is to call it scrap, and move on with the 3rd bolt.

The 3rd bolt isn't damaged and does duck the frame, but not fast enough.

The unmeasurable guess I have is there is 0.0015" clearance, but now I know what I was just told by Old Fuff, I think I'ld like to add more metal, forward of that repair, in such a way as to cam up quicker.

I wonder if I can work up a clearance of 0.0005" between the bolt follower and the cam, and sort of egg that cam too?

Old Fuff You gitcha' a big gold star smack in the middle of ye' ol fore head!

That was some classey answer A+

ps: I typed your name before and added an "L" as in Fluff which is what ya get when you are dyslexic as I am.. sorry about that. I thought it was a hair thing see?

 

[Macmac]

I took Old Fuff's advise in a way. I re welded the first fix hoping to beef up the cam more. Now to re-cut and see if I need one more weld or not.

Hammer first rule. So Im283 I decided to take a small step back. Weld was added in another place. Once I see what that gets I can go to the bolt step again.

These "So here are the facts.."

"The orginal is 0.242 heavy or what i would call .2425""

"The one in the gun as it came so the 2nd bolt is 0.263""

"The one I am working with is uncut, at 0.271" at factory specs."

 

[Im283]

I am following along.

 

[LEE3370]

If you plan to buy ASM parts to repair it with, try Deer Creek. I have got quite a few parts for different models made by ASM from them. They bought out all the parts when CVA stopped selling ASM revolvers.

Deer Creek Products
6989 E Michigan Rd
Waldron, IN 46182
(765) 525-6181

They have no internet site or e-mail. So you have to call them.

 

[Old Fuff]

The location of the cam on the hammer is critical to the particular bolt that you use. That's one reason that it is important to use replacement parts made by the revolver's manufacturer. In the original hammer ( and some reproductions) a hole was drilled in the hammer and the cam was a seperate part that was press fitted into the hole. On current reproduction hammers I believe the hammer is investment cast, and the cam is part of that casting - which means you can't keep the hammer but replace the cam if it becomes worn.

You need to make a simple fixture which is a base (hardwood or metal) with two pins on which the hammer and bolt can be placed. Then you can see what your are doing. "Back when" Colt made cut away revolvers for instructional purposes.

Always remember a new bolt is not a drop-in part. It is made with extra metal at the fit points so that it can be individually fitted to a particular gun. Getting that correct fit takes both knowledge and experience - which is the reason one didn't become a final assembler at the factory overnight.

 

[Macmac]

Lee thanks. I am sure that is handy news for Im283 .

Old Fuff , Keep talkin'. I am all ears. To me this is a once in a life time event so far. Im283 can clue us in on what he knows about these bolts, which are much better than the original, IMO.

Taking inti account what you told me beofre I decided to reduce the gap I had and build the cam up more.

You are correct about investment cam on this hammer. I have not yet cut this last drop of weld to be able to see how much it is built.

When I do later today, as it has snowed again, I will be looking at how this 2nd weld fits up. It may be I want one more drop of weld, maybe to create an etcentric (sp) to egg' the cam for a faster drop.

It appears to me IF, I can get that, I can then trim the bolt "ball" less.

The above given specs, at each step are nearly 1/10th" apart from one another. To me that means I have a lot of room to remove metal and fit these parts up in a semi pro way in appearance and action. (semi pro means by hand, and not machined, but still neat, orderly and polished)

This more weld will mean I have a maximum amount of bolt ball to mess around with.

That wood block idea is great... If I thought this venture would be more than once I could mill and drill a steel block. My landlord is a machinist (old school) but has a full blown machine shop. I don't bug him much, but he will do things if I ask.

So at this point I would prefer to use the bolt I had worked with most, because I like the quailty of it, compared to the original. It is likey the first weld could have worked with the things you told me in the first post.

That I could have cut the ledge, to lower the follower, for faster action, and then by doing that it would have raised the "ball" higher.

No matter what the 0.271" is to high as the factory bolt is.

To me, this is a little bit of a challange because I am just drawn that way.
So I want this to end up a nice bit of work, not just for the owner, but for me to know he will be pleased.

You have given me some great lessons.. Thank you. mac

 

[Im283]

As for the replacement bolts, to the best of my knowledge they are Pietta bolts for their 1851 Navy. After much searching and finally giving up on finding ASM parts I tried various manufacterers parts. The Pietta parts are without a doubt made from a higher quality, harder metal. And that high quality metal aided in harming the cam on my hammer.

As for Deer Creek I believe they are one of the suppliers I tried but had no luck with. Maybe things are different today.

 

[Macmac]

Im283 Yeah well the bolt was hitting the frame and so coming up very short. So when it did come up short there was no place to go, and the bolt follower did the only thing it could do and that was slice off some cam.

I spent 5 hours just looking, another trying to fix that bolt. It won't be breaking any time soon after get it back.. smile ok?

Even if we had ASM, and I saw what the comparison is I would still want these better bolts. With that said the ASM bolts would still need to be fit.

The orginal had to have been fit, as it is 0.029 inch lower at the "ball". So it stands to reason a new ASM bolt would still need a good fitting to get it working.

 

[Im283]

Mac, at this point I do not know if this matters really, but the gun had siezed up with the original ASM bolt in it.

I am guessing here, but i now think that the original bolt about wore out and must have become mishapen(?) from firing it over the years, and the last time I shot it was like a straw breaking the camels back.

Does that sound possible even?

I will owe a lifetimes worth of gratitude when you are finished with it.

 

[Macmac]

Im283,
Yeah who ever fits these parts, probably does it 8 hours a day, as fast as he can, for money. The money is probably pretty low too. So there is a fair chance the bolt never was right.

Theis is the one you taped to the paper, and is in two pieces if i am not in error. The only one that is odd man out, so to speak.

Then you sent me the one in the gun, which is ruined, partly you and partly me, not understanding it was hitting the frame.

Then another new one, that I will be working on as soone as I get the hammer right, which is the one I have been working with.

The last one is untouched by man, other than to look at for referance.

Saying what broke that first original is hard to say and be sure, but there is that chance it was never really right.

I haven't checked the cylinder to be out of round yet. Most of them are not perfect and I don't care who machined it. The lock cuts might varry too, and it does on every gun ever made by anybody.

Machines wear and change what is thought of as being indentical.

I have a Kimber that had to go back. It was flinging cases in my face.. Not good for a ccw gun. It shot low, about 4" at 15 yards, and so then there is no adjustment to make it shoot to point of aim. SO I request a new ft blade.

This happens all the time.. The last gun I bought was a NAA mini in .22lr and .22 mag, and it spit the cylinder pin out every 3rd shot, from being new out of the box. it too went back.

You don't have warrenty, and you can't buy parts, or atleast couldn't. No real smith would waste his time because of money.

That's where I fit in. I can do the add metal remove metal, and am pretty fair at doing so, best of all in this case I am free.. Can't beat tha with a stick..

This is no more than cam's, springs, and levers, to me. There is detail in these, to get timing just right, so it makes for interesting study, like a puzzel.

I didn't need to ask a thing to work this out, but I am glad I did, because I learned a few things from Old Fuff. For what he said he, gets an automatic trust on my part, and a certain amount of earned respect too.

OT maybe: I am a Buck Skinner. This alone makes me odd, and different. Almost always when I get a silver order I make it up and send it out, to be inspected. When the buyer gets to see, touch and inspect he sends the fee.

If he isn't delited he just send the pieces back and I pay him his postage.

So far no one has ever returned 1 item yet, and I have never been burned.

I don't understand pay first, wait, and get possible junk..

Most of the time a buyer sends more money than I asked for which IS the case from last week. The order with the items and shipping was 55 bucks. The buyer sent 65... Happens all the time...

 

[Im283]

Theis is the one you taped to the paper, and is in two pieces if i am not in error.

this is the original part, is it of any help on the angle or size of the bolt?

 

[Macmac]

Oh yeah you bet it is! Once I drilled the bolt I am working with I placed it on the screw pin, and placed that broken on next to it, just in my fingers of course. Side by side, and then could see the top side I can't see well was different! It has a relief that the new bolt didn't have!

With a black marker I coated the new bolt on the sides and then with a scribe, holding the original struck a scribed line in the marker.

That made it so I was able to cut off the excess where the bolt hit the frame!

Oh you bet it was a good thing, sending me the broken stuff! You will get every thing back too. Plus a few notes.... This way you can see what I did easier. I beleive in telling cutomers the truth. I believe when they are interested and know the truth they will have confidence.

None of the, as of late, Gets Club for me..

Get in, get out, get paid, not my style. When these guys get done I like to fix what was done after them. Of course this is the same deal you and I have.

You did your best, but were unfamilar. I am also some what unfamilar but with more understanding. Porshce 911's in about 1977 had varrable timing and 2 chains. The chains had oil pressure and spring driven tensioners.

Since I was not a dealer, no one was interested in selling the special tool, so I just made one... I have to this day no idea what their tool looked like, but I still have mine and it did work well.

Today a did some carb work and had no kit, so I just made the parts and gaskets I needed... Going to buy store bought around here makes things take a lot longer.

 

[Im283]

I can't wait to see what you have done and read the notes. This entire process has been fascinating to me. I have learned more about revolvers in the last two weeks than I ever knew in the previous 49 years.

This Colt fellow must have been very intelligent to have made these things up from scratch

 

[Old Fuff]

Does the original bolt have the left limb broke off just behind the screw hole? That limb is in effect a flat spring. It is positioned above the hammer cam. When you cock the hammer the cam rotates upward and backwards. When it does this the cam lifts the tail end of the bolt – which rotates on a screw. Therefore the front of the bolt rotates downward in the opposite direction and the ball drops out the cylinder’s notch and releases the cylinder so that it can turn.

Toward the end of the hammer’s cycle the cam rotates out of contact with the bolt and the bolt spring pushes the bolt upward to that it can again lock the cylinder in the next notch.

When the trigger is pulled the hammer rotates forward. The lower tapered surface of the cam bends the bolt’s limb inward until the cam has rotated low enough so that the limb can snap back into its original position. When the limb flexes it should do so from the front of the “U” cut in the bolt, and not from behind the screw. If it’s flexing from behind the screw it will soon break. For obvious reasons the bolt should be spring tempered and not too hard. You shouldn’t have to do any fitting to the cam, which should be as hard as a banker’s heart. There is extra metal on the bolt to do any necessary fitting.

 

[Macmac]

Old Fuff the original bolt is broken off on the left limb, right at the ball base where it joined to be one, as far forward as is possible. The break is dead flush with the ball.

Everything you said should be true in the action. You have said that prefectly.

However there is a flaw. This hammer isn't all that hard and can be filed pretty easy. The cam was damaged, and the left limb (follower) slipped to the side and fell off the lug before half cock was achieved, as I recieved this gun.

So I have a question. The new bolt is as hard as a bankers heart. (Nice one)

The new bolt had a pivot hole too small for the screw pin to pass, so I used number drills. I used the closest possible size to the pin as I had. I believe it was a 0.126 drill.

The bolt will spin freel on the pin part of the screw, but should the hole be drilled one size larger? As it is there is no wiggle room at all, and appears to be a nice fit, not too tight, and not too loose.

Since weld is all over the place, I can't fit the parts and look this instant. A snow storm and a snow blower stopped me from getting to this task today.

This is great stuff, thanks a lot.

 

[Mustanger1]

I have a couple new ASM bolts for the 1851/1860 Colt models...Came from VTI.