6.5/6.8 in the military-outcome of .223?

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I say the US Military should go with the 6.5 Grendel.

The 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel have identical terminal performance at short range.:)
The 6.5 Grendel has better ballistics at all ranges and better terminal performance at longer range.:D

The 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel both overcome the 5.56 lack of stopping ability at short range.:)
The 6.5 Grendel also does so at longer range.:D

The 6.8 SPC is a "limiting" cartridge in that it's effectiveness is less at longer range. :(
I don't want another cartridge that limits me in some way.:mad:

The 6.5 Grendel can be a good round for some of the long ranges we are now seeing in Afghanistan. :)
Why go to a 6.8 SPC - good for short range - and then find ourselves wanting a good long range shooter as well as short range terminal performer?:confused:

Remember that our situations will continually change and we will find ourselves wanting.
 
Autobahndriver, I heartily agree with all your points. However, if you want to be technically accurate, we don't yet have the tests that PROVE your assertion: "The 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel have identical terminal performance at short range."

I've long argued that I see no theoretical or technical reason why a target would ever be able to tell the caliber difference of ONE-THIRD of a MILLIMETER, but to be fair I don't have the test results to back it up. Not that gel test results are ultimately conclusive anyway; they don't even account for hitting bone, for example. They are a great tool in the ballistician's lab, but they're only part of the picture.

But the good thing about the 6.5 Grendel is that it uses 6.5 bullets just like many other traditional 6.5 cartridges. There's no magic there. We've got a very long history, over 100 years, of knowing what 6.5-caliber bullets can and can't do. They've been used for hunting almost everything, and I say that if they're good enough for moose they're good enough for terrorists.

About the only thing the history of 6.5 bullets doesn't show us is the reduction in velocity in going to the smaller PPC case versus a more traditional 6.5 Mannlicher or, of course, the 6.5 x 55 Swede. But, on the other hand, we have almost no historical record of performance, that I'm aware of, of 115-grain 6.8 bullets at slower velocities than the .270 Win typically gets. I'm not saying the 6.8 is a dog; I say terminal performance is practically a wash with the 6.5. But I do think it will be borne out that the 6.8 does trail behind in external ballistics and penetration of barriers.

The bottom line is that I'm with you. Not adopting the 6.5 Grendel in favor of the second-place 6.8 SPC would be another bureaucratic/political blunder akin to the military's $600 toilet seats.

John
 
In stating "identical terminal performance at short range", I meant "a wash" as you agree.

You can't get identical terminal effect out of two identical rounds from the same manufacturer! ...but terminal performance is likely to be very close.
 
I am sympathetic to the 6.5, but don't assume that of the ballistics are the same, the terminal effects will be. Some dramatic differences in terminal effects of 7.62x39 military rounds have been observed, based solely on the bullet construction (ad I don't mean hunting rounds - I mean between full-jacket spitzers).

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion
forum
 
If the military adopts the 6.8 SPC or the 6.5 Grendel (large scale), they will have bullets made to military spec - most likely unlike the current bullets being used in either round.

...on the other hand, current 6.5 bullets in use are used against very large game and for game at long ranges very effectively. The only difference with the 6.5 Grendel is 500meter velocity is the same as 600meter velocity with the bigger 6.5 rounds...and so on for other ranges...

Any more info on the severe accuracy problem with the 6.8 SPC? Was it a short production run problem?
 
Quote from Bill Alexander on the development of the 6.5 Grendel:

“In May 2003, the first 6.5 Grendel prototype rifle was unveiled to the world during an event at the Blackwater training center. The rifle and cartridge delivered outstanding accuracy with total reliability. Feedback was gathered from a number of people permitted to shoot the prototype rifle…

…a rigorous period of testing and refinement began to advance the project into production. One of the key refinements came as a result of Lapua and their team of engineers joining the project and presenting improvements in the case design intended to optimize performance for 107-130 grain 6.5mm bullets and use in semi-automatic and automatic platforms such as the AR15/M16. As time progressed, the necessary production test runs of rifles and ammunition continued to ensure that the production products are as good or better then the custom built prototypes...

…The 123-grain Lapua Scenar with a ballistic coefficient of .547 launched at modest 2600 fps muzzle velocity delivers outstanding long range performance out to 1200 yards. Accuracy levels were impressive with test rifles forming single digit groups at 1,000 yards and at 600 yards, tennis ball sized targets are easy prey with a scope adjustment of only 14 MOA with a 200-yard zero.

In ballistic gelatin tests, the Lapua 108-grain Scenar launched at a muzzle velocity of 2750 fps penetrated 22" of gelatin with a .43" diameter and 64% weight retention at a distance of 300 yards. As a more casual test, the Lapua 108-grain bullet consistently sliced through 4" pine posts at 900 yards.

In the interest of game hunting, the 120-grain Nosler Ballistic tip at a 2600 fps muzzle velocity was tested in ballistic gelatin. This bullet penetrated 18" and expanded to .51" diameter with 75% weight retention at a distance of 300 yards. The recovered bullet exhibited perfect mushrooming with no core separation.â€

Note: the Scenar bullets by Lapua are fully jacketed lead with a small hollow portion fully enclosed by the jacket at the tip of the round.
 
6.8

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the 6.8 VERY similar to a cartridge that was tested for the M16 in the early 50's? It was decided against because the military desired something to have less recoil and a flat trajectory so marksman skills could easily be applied, I believe. Anyways, it's funny who things seem to go in circles sometimes with changes in times and concepts of war. Afterall, our military decided against 9mm, .30 luger and .30 mauser in the early part of the 20th century. Instead they chose the .45 for greater stopping power only to adopt the 9mm in the 1980's. But in all fairness it probably had more to do with the gun rather than the cartridge to account for the change in sidearms. If we are going to make a change in rifle cartridges we should probably change the rifle as well (not saying that there is anything wrong with the M16) so perhaps a more ergonomic battle rifle of greater simplicity and accuracy would be suitable. HHHHmm, I vouch for a bullpup .308!!! :eek: :D :)
 
I remember another thread about polymer cased 7.62 ammo. Would a polymer cased 6.5 Grendel lower the weight about to the brass cased .223 round?
 
Ooh. I haven't seen the thread in question, but that doesn't strike me as a good idea. Plastic can be as strong as metal, but it usually needs to be thicker, to reach equivalent strength. It's also more sensitive to heat...

John
 
Thanks for the link. I see the case actually is metal towards the base, so that makes more sense than an all-plastic case. :)
 
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