6.5 Creedmoor load development ... seems way too easy!

[MCMXI]

I installed a new 6.5 Creedmoor barrel on my AI AW last week and right off the bat had great results with Hornady 140gr A-MAX factory ammunition. Saturday was really windy with snow flurries all day, but Sunday was a gorgeous day in NW Montana so I figured I'd start load development. I was just going to get some idea of the velocity of the factory Hornady load and see where I might end up with my reloads. I decided to use Hornady 140gr A-MAX bullets since I have a few boxes of them along with Reloder 17 (I have 16lb since I was going to build a .260 Rem at some point). From what I've read, H4350 is a very popular powder for the 6.5 Creedmoor but I don't have any of that. I have a bunch of Varget and Reloder 15 but they're most likely too fast for 140gr bullets so I figured I'd try Reloder 17. I had 20 once-fired Hornady cases along with one new case from a factory load that I disassembled a few months back. You can see in the first target where the bullet from the new case impacted. I noticed that the Hornday brass is quite a bit undersized at the shoulder (diameter) compared to the SAAMI spec so that might account for the larger group. All of the once-fired cases were neck-sized only and not trimmed to length.

I used the new unfired case with a number of A-MAX bullets to get some idea of the max OAL and it looks like my handloads have the bullet sitting about .020" off the lands at 2.820" (2.202" BC). The factory Hornady load is about .022" off the lands. With an OAL of 2.820" there's still plenty of room in the AI magazine, but much longer and the bullet would be into the lands. As you can see from the groups below, every load shot quite well. To be honest, I had only loaded up to 44.0gr and then cleaned the barrel with alcohol and shot four factory rounds to measure the velocity. The high impact in group 9 was 2791 fps compared to 2744, 2755 and 2769 so I discounted it from the group. After shooting the factory load, I used the brass to put together four more rounds with 44.3gr of powder and shot group 8 (four rounds) after cleaning the barrel with a patch soaked in alcohol. I don't think I've ever had such good results over such a range of powder weights. I've read Zak's articles many times and he made the observation that a bad group with the .260 Rem or 6.5 Creedmoor is still under 0.75 moa. The velocities shown are averaged from the three or four rounds shot. Hornady lists the MV of their 140gr A-MAX load to be 2,700 fps but I'm getting 2,750 fps out of my 24" Bartlein barrel. I've noticed that the Hornady load is quite dirty compared to my handloads.





A gorgeous day at my house in NW Montana yesterday ... yes, I need to buy a tripod!



6.5 Creedmoor handloads on the right with handloads for my gf's 6.5x47 Lapua on the left

 

[dh1633pm]

I was thinking of getting into the 6.5 Game. But brass is so darn expensive at over $1 per. The good thing being that once purchased, recycling takes away the sting a little bit. The results your getting almost seem to make it worthwhile. Excellent shooting by the way.

 

[horsemen61]

Awesome shooting

 

[Kaldor]

I was thinking of getting into the 6.5 Game. But brass is so darn expensive at over $1 per. The good thing being that once purchased, recycling takes away the sting a little bit. The results your getting almost seem to make it worthwhile. Excellent shooting by the way.

Less a buck a piece. The brass lasts very nicely as well. My buddy has 5+ loads on a few pieces he was testing. Still good to go. If you anneal, will last a very long time. Ive heard upwards of 20 loads.

And yep, awesome shooting

 

[Nature Boy]

MCMXI,

While I find your posts with pictures of your rifles awesome and the results of your shooting most impressive, I respectfully ask that you stop.

Either that, or I find some self help group before I end up bringing an AI home to face an angry wife and an uncertain future

 

[MCMXI]

Thanks for the kind words re my shooting but as I've said a number of times, the AI rifles make anyone look good. Combine an AI with 6.5 Creedmoor and my 82 year old aunt would look good!

But brass is so darn expensive at over $1 per.

Midway has Hornady brass on sale for $0.68 each. It's on back order but you can still purchase.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/528000/hornady-reloading-brass-65-creedmoor-box-of-50

I have a bunch of factory ammunition so I'll be using the brass from that. I also have an induction annealer and neck size only so hope to get good brass life. The primer pocket will be the first thing to go most likely. Talking of primers, I didn't have a single pierced primer. Pierced primers are a problem in AIs shooting 6.5x47 Lapua and Zak Smith had primer issues with his AI shooting .260 Remington. I ran the loads through QuickLOAD and it's very close on actual velocities for all of the loads that I tried. Max pressure with 44.3 gr of Reloder 17 is 63,114 psi according to QuickLOAD and max pressure with 44.0gr of Reloder 17 is 61,700 psi. That load shot well and the velocity for +/- 0.3gr was virtually the same so I'll probably stick with that load. I will be playing with bullet jump to the lands. Currently it's at .020" so I'll most likely try +.010", .030", .040" and .050" and see what happens.

 

[MCMXI]

Either that, or I find some self help group before I end up bringing an AI home to face an angry wife and an uncertain future

HA! HA! It's easier to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission. If you buy an AI you will never regret it. I've done it three times and would love another!

 

[MDof2]

Very nice work.
Maybe I missed it, but could you share what optic you're using on your AI?

 

[MCMXI]

It's a Nightforce 3.5-15x50mm F1 (Front Focal) that they only made for a year or two. It's a really good scope with excellent adjustments, but the reticle is a little heavy for load development (using the 1" circle above) compared to other scopes that I have.

 

[Nature Boy]

If you buy an AI you will never regret it. I've done it three times and would love another!

OK, I can see this is not the place to get help

 

[MCMXI]

Nature Boy, maybe this will make you feel better. I had a 6.5 Creedmoor GO gauge when I installed the barrel but didn't have a NO-GO gauge so I ordered one from PT&G. It came in today and I checked headspace during lunch. The bolt closed on the NO-GO gauge! That's the only data I have at this point. I haven't measured the NO-GO gauge so don't know how it's sized in relation to the SAAMI chamber. However, since I reload for this rifle (neck size only) and it shoots both factory Hornady 140gr A-MAX and reloads into sub 0.5 moa groups maybe I shouldn't worry about it. I did speak with one of the very knowledgeable gunsmiths at MHSA today and he will happily correct the issue by taking a few thousandths off the shoulder of the barrel if that's what I want. I haven't decided yet but will wait until I've figured out how much the chamber is over the minimum SAAMI spec of 1.541". Max SAAMI is 1.551" so the chamber might still be in spec. The Bartlein barrel blank is 416 stainless and single point cut with a salt nitride finish, but the chamber and threading was done by Tooley using Manson gauges. I'll post more info as it becomes available. Overall I'm not that concerned given how the barrel shoots and knowing that MHSA will fix the "problem" if necessary.

 

[dh1633pm]

I did see that the Hornady brass was cheaper but a lot of comments even here that it didn't work as well and with loose primer pockets. And of course you have to find someone who has it for sale.

You rifle is a nice one, the scope nicer yet. I am sure I could get into the 6.5 game. Even if I did, not sure I could shoot like you do. I was looking at a Kimber 8400 in 6.5. Hard to part with the money, but I think the end result might be positive.

What was the temp during your session?

Not sure I would worry about the chamber if your neck sizing, but it would be nice to have the exact chamber in SAAMI spec.

 

[Nature Boy]

MCMXI, so closing on the NO GO would mean too much headspace?

And there's a LGS that's had a used AI .308 that's the twin of yours above for sale for A long time for $2,800. I may make him a rediculous offer and see where it goes

 

[Captcurt]

Can't find any brass except for Norma.

MCMXI,

I have been looking for Creedmoor brass for a week and Norma is the only thing in stock at Midway. $37.99 per 25. Ouch!

I bought 2 boxes of Hornady ammo just for brass. Have a new Vanguard to ring out when the wind dies down.

 

[MCMXI]

What was the temp during your session?*

Outside temperature was around 40F but the ammunition was around 60F. I took the ammo from the house a few minutes before shooting each group.

MCMXI, so closing on the NO GO would mean too much headspace?

Nature Boy, ideally the chamber is minimum SAAMI but technically the chamber is in spec if it's under maximum SAAMI (or doesn't close on a field gauge). If you reload it's not a big problem, but if you shoot mostly factory ammunition you might have accuracy problems. Factory cases are typically. 005" below SAAMI minimum so they could be expanding significantly during firing. I would be all over that AI. Just make sure it's an AI and not some rifle in an AICS stock.


Captcurt, the Hornady brass seems fine to me. I'd like it if Lapua made Creedmoor brass but it seems unlikely that they'll do it.

 

[MCMXI]

I took some chamber measurements last night making the assumption that the PT&G GO gauge is SAAMI minimum chamber (i.e. 1.541”). These actual measurements are from the case head to a datum on the shoulder and are shown in bold. The assumed dimensions are shown in parentheses.

Hornady unfired brass: -.0030” (1.5380")
PT&G GO gauge: .0000” (1.5410")
PT&G NO-GO gauge: .0040” (1.5450")
1st firing of Hornady case: .0045” (1.5455")
2nd firing of Hornady case (neck sized only): .0065” (1.5475")

The chamber is within SAAMI spec at a maximum of around 1.5480" (SAAMI max is 1.5510") but the factory brass is growing .0095” after two firings. My concern is that even though factory Hornady 140gr A-MAX ammunition and my 140gr A-MAX handloads both shoot well (see targets above), the difference in case growth during firing will change the POI between the two. I’d much rather that factory ammunition and my handloads grow by about the same amount and have the same POI or very close. I’d like to have the shoulder set back .0050” to .0060” if possible so that the headspace is much closer to SAAMI minimum.

 

[MCMXI]

I ordered a Hornady headspace kit, and after measuring once and twice fired (neck-sized only) cases from this barrel, and buying a NO-GO gage, it was clear that the barrel was at the upper end of the SAAMI chamber spec. I sent it back to MHSA and one of their gunsmiths took .005" off the shoulder that butts up to the receiver. I got the barrel back earlier in the week and put the barrel back on yesterday. I shot a couple of groups (44.0gr and 44.3gr of Reloder 17) to make sure that the barrel is still shooting well. Clearly it is, and now the chamber at the shoulder datum is around .002" over a PT&G GO gage. Once fired new Hornday cases grow at the shoulder from -.0035" to .0010". Twice fired cases (neck-sized only) grow from .0010" to .0020". They were growing to +.008" before! 44.0gr is a real sweet spot for this barrel. If 44.6gr shoots well and to the same group center location I'll call it good and then start playing a little with bullet seating depth. The bullet is currently about .020" off the lands, virtually the same length OAL (within .0015") as factory Hornady 140gr A-MAX match ammunition.

 

[dh1633pm]

I have been looking at acquiring a 6.5 rifle. Already have a 6.5x55. I did look at the Creedmoor. I will consider it some more. You have a fine rifle, looks like the change you made certainly helped out. I have noted your loads. First step towards anything is to learn. Thanks for sharing your lessons.

 

[Nature Boy]

Nice shooting.

 

[Gtscotty]

I have been considering trying RL17 in my Creedmoor. Do you like it better than H4350? Do you get better velocity than H4350? Nice shooting!

 

[MCMXI]

Gtscotty, I haven't tried H4350. I have 16lb of Reloder 17 so that's what I'm using. It seems to work well with 140gr bullets. My loads aren't compressed whereas the Hornady 140gr A-MAX load appears to be compressed and the velocity of their load is "only" 2,750 fps. I think they're using H4350 but am not positive. I'm up around 2,900 fps with RE17.

 

[Txhillbilly]

For a while a couple years ago,Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor brass was too soft. The guy's that bought factory ammo couldn't use it to reload.It was loaded pretty hot from the factory,and the primer pockets were expanding to the point that a new primer was loose.
I've never shot any of the Hornady factory ammo out of mine,I've used virgin brass most of the time but I have bought some once fired brass for a good price. The once fired brass does have some primer pocket issues,I probably toss 10% of it in the trash.

The Nosler/Norma brass is fantastic,and worth the money.

If you just gotta have Lapua brass,buy some 22-250 brass and fire form it. It will be a little short the first firing,but after that,it works like a charm.

 

[MCMXI]

So far I haven't had any issues with Hornady brass with three firings. Perhaps Hornady figured out that all they needed to do was hit the case head twice during forming to make it harder. Remington does that for 300 Blackout brass. I have a lot of Hornady ammunition so won't be investing in other brass anytime soon. I broke down 40 rounds of the 120gr GMX ammo today since it's marginal at best. I used 20 cases to load 5 each of 43.7gr, 44.0gr, 44.3gr and 44.6gr of Reloder 17. The wind was howling today but I'll shoot tomorrow if it's nice. I noticed that Hornady uses some crappy ball powder or similar for the GMX load and what looks like a CCI primer. I was pleased to see that the shoulders on the new cases are right at minimum SAAMI chamber dimensions. These loads should shoot really well.

 

[CANNONMAN]

Awesome posts! This retiring with a bit of cash and finally having the time is so much more fun than I had expected. I think I hate windy days the most. Are Redding dies a better buy from any certain place?

 

[Txhillbilly]

Awesome posts! This retiring with a bit of cash and finally having the time is so much more fun than I had expected. I think I hate windy days the most. Are Redding dies a better buy from any certain place?

The Hornady match bushing dies are very good dies. I use them on my Creedmoor,I have a couple sets of the Redding bushing dies,and the Hornady don't give anything up to them.