6.5 Creedmoor load development ... seems way too easy!

[MCMXI]

Are Redding dies a better buy from any certain place?

I have dies from RCBS, Lee, Hornady, Forster and Redding and find Redding dies to be the best that I've used. Ammunition seems to have minimum runout when measuring the bullet or the case neck. Midway has decent prices on the competition sets that I use. I like to neck-size only and bump the shoulder back with a body die when needed.

 

[Gtscotty]

Gtscotty, I haven't tried H4350. I have 16lb of Reloder 17 so that's what I'm using. It seems to work well with 140gr bullets. My loads aren't compressed whereas the Hornady 140gr A-MAX load appears to be compressed and the velocity of their load is "only" 2,750 fps. I think they're using H4350 but am not positive. I'm up around 2,900 fps with RE17.

Wow, that's really smoking for a 140gr. I've been looking for a source for 6.5CM data using RL17, but haven't found any published, where did you find your load data?

 

[MCMXI]

where did you find your load data?

I looked around at numerous online loading manuals and used QuickLOAD. So far QL has been close on velocity.

 

[rg1]

Sometimes it seems too easy. Good barrel, good rifle, good trigger and using a natural good shooting caliber like 6.5 and it seems like most loads shoot really well. Plus a consistent shooter helps. The challenge for a perfect combination is making a 1/2" group shrink to 1/4" or less plus eliminating a load that occasionally has a flyer out of the main group. Good shooting and nice looking rifle.

 

[MCMXI]

The challenge for a perfect combination is making a 1/2" group shrink to 1/4" or less plus eliminating a load that occasionally has a flyer out of the main group.

I've come to the conclusion that I'm not good at shooting 1/4" groups with my setup i.e. off a bipod and with a rear bag. I'm probably not able to do it consistently with any setup. I'll happily settle for consistent 5-round 1/3 moa groups for load development.

I got lousy EVs from the Hornady new brass (broken down 120gr GMX loads) on Sunday. Not sure why but I'll use it again after neck sizing and see what happens. I did run the brass through the neck sizing die after pulling the bullets but it's possible that the neck tension was all over the place. I have a hard time believing that the brass Hornady uses for the 140gr A-MAX load would be different from the brass used in the 120gr GMX load but it was sized differently based on the location of the datum on the shoulder.

 

[Captaingyro]

If you don't mind my changing the subject slightly, how did you produce the graphics (with the graph paper background) in posts 1 and 17? They're very nice.

 

[Bart B.]

If 20 people shoot a 5-shot test group with the same rifle and ammo, will all 20 groups be the same size (extreme spread) and center at the same place relative to the aiming point?

If 20 people use the same reloading tools, components and rifle to develop an accurate load, will all of them end up with the exact same load?

Food for thought when reading load recipes in manuals.

I find MCMXI's happily settling for consistent 5-round 1/3 moa groups for load development interesting. That's going to be next to impossible to do, in my opinion. Never known anyone to shoot several groups all the same size. Only time I know that bullets consistently have the same group size is while they're in the barrel; then group size is zero. And 1/3 MOA is the approximate maximum 100-yard benchrest aggregate record's groups sizes. The average is about 2/10ths MOA and largest group is about 1/3 MOA. If you've ever read the results of a benchrest match then seen the spread of groups the winners and record setters produce, there's quite a spread in group sizes for each 5- or 10-shot string. Biggest groups by those doing best typically have a 3X to 6X spread in group sizes.

 

[MCMXI]

If you don't mind my changing the subject slightly, how did you produce the graphics (with the graph paper background) in posts 1 and 17? They're very nice.

Very low tech! I stuck 1" target dots on graph paper and scanned the image and saved it to pdf. When I need a target I just print one off. The graph paper I had was only 8-1/2"x11" so I had to tape two sheets together.

I find MCMXI's happily settling for consistent 5-round 1/3 moa groups for load development interesting. That's going to be next to impossible to do, in my opinion. Never known anyone to shoot several groups all the same size.

Perhaps I should have worded it differently to avoid confusion. Let me be more specific. I'd like to work up a load capable of consistent performance producing five shot groups that are 0.300 moa +/- .050 moa.

 

[Gtscotty]

I looked around at numerous online loading manuals and used QuickLOAD. So far QL has been close on velocity.

Thanks for posting that! I shoot in a wide variety of temperatures, so if Reloader 17 is temp sensitive, it might not be for me. Still, it's nice to see some numbers, and given the great velocities you're getting, it might be worth a try. I have noticed that while Varget and H4350 have been relatively rare at my usual gun stores lately, the Reloder powders are always in stock... There is something to be said for consistent availability.

 

[MCMXI]

I finally got around to buying one of the really nice Atlas bipods with the AI adapter last week so figured I'd do a bit more 6.5 CM load development this weekend. I put together two more loads yesterday and shot two 5-shot groups. After going through previous results, looking at ES values, looking at QL pressure data, and thinking about Dan Newbury and Chris Long's OCW/barrel nodes discussions I decided to try 43.1gr and 43.4gr of Reloder 17. These loads averaged 2,832 fps and 2,848 fps last time (QL predicted 2,835 fps and 2,852 fps respectively) . I also decided to move the bullet 0.010" closer to the lands so that it's 0.010" off the lands. Before shooting I cleaned the barrel with patches soaked in alcohol and ran a dry patch through the barrel. I was very pleased to see that the first round hit almost dead center of the aiming dot! The second shot was right next to it and both were close to the final group center so I'm confident that there's no major clean/cold bore shift. I can't say if the other three shots in the group were my error or due to errors in the handloads. However, the second 5-shot group was awesome at 0.377 moa for five shots off a bipod and rear bag. My next test will be five shots each at 43.1gr, 43.4gr and 43.7gr over the chronograph to check velocity, ES, SD, OCW and confirm any errors. I would only expect these groups to get smaller with a suppressor attached so this could be it for load development. I'll happily settle for a consistent 0.3XX moa load at 2,850 fps and close to 60,000 psi. That would better the Hornady factory load by 100 fps and a tenth or two in moa.

 

[Nature Boy]

I really like my Atlas. Took my a while to muster up the fortitude to spend that much, but the sting only lasts for a while

 

[MCMXI]

The Atlas is more than worth the expense over a Harris bipod. I should have bought one a long time ago. I bought the AI attachment (spigot) so can move it around my three AIs. I also bought the Picatinny rail attachment which will allow me to use it on my ARs. I bought some leg extensions too in case I take the AI AW hunting again this year.

 

[MDof2]

You found it.
Group two.
Nice work.

 

[MCMXI]

You found it.
Group two.

A Hornady case, 43.4gr of Reloder 17, a Federal GM210M primer and a Hornday 140gr A-MAX sitting .010" off the lands seems to do the trick and the pressure is nowhere near max. I think I'm done developing this load and will stay with 43.4gr (2,910 fps suppressed) and will now take it out to 700 yards to see how it does. That said, I did some more testing this weekend and shot 43.1gr, 43.4gr and 43.7gr to see how the accuracy and group centers change either side of 43.4gr (OCW approach to allow for changes in density altitude). These groups were shot suppressed with no scope adjustment. The velocity increase is nice for sure (about 60 fps increase over non-suppressed) and the 5-shot group in the center is probably the smallest I've ever shot at 0.237 moa. I was pleased to see the the group centers didn't move around much at all over the 0.6gr charge weight with a maximum horizontal and vertical shift of .235" and .249" respectively. The left most shot in the right group was shot #3 and the fast one at 2,983 fps. The other four shots had an ES of 7 fps but the mirage was catching up with me so could have been shooter error.



The groups above used brass that had been shot twice and neck sized only and there was some resistance on the bolt when chambering a round. The cases had grown to +.002" over the GO GAGE. For this reason I'm annealing and bumping the shoulders back to the GO GAGE dimension on twice fired cases i.e. -.002" compared to the chamber. The photo below shows the results after annealing. The cases were tumbled in stainless steel media and all previous signs of annealing removed. I haven't shot any annealed loads yet but am hoping for lower ES numbers. Basically I'm chasing taliv's low ES numbers. That said, the 43.4gr group doesn't seem to care too much about low ES numbers!

 

[Gtscotty]

Looks like you have a great load worked out. I almost picked up some RL17 to try in my 6.5 the other day after reading your thread, but figured I had better finish up work on my H4350 loads before getting distracted. Out of curriosity, how are you annealing your brass? Pan of water and a blow torch, or do you have some specialized equipment?

 

[MCMXI]

Gtscotty, I bought 16lb of Reloder 17 a few years back with the plan to build a .260 Remington for F-Class. I bought a Badger M2008 action, a Krieger barrel and an AICS stock but then moved to an area where there wasn't a good, local F-Class scene. I ended up selling the barrel, action and stock for no loss but kept the powder. If not for that, I would have been looking for H4350. As it stands, I have enough powder for the life of this barrel i.e. 2,500 rounds so will stick with this load unless it proves to be very temperature sensitive. I need to test for that. When I worked at Remington we would test at -20°F, ambient (~70°F) and 150°F. That's a much harder test than most will subject their ammunition too but that was the spec.

As for annealing, I have a Fluxion "Annie" annealer. So far it's proven to be very useful. I'm still learning some of the subtleties of the machine but overall it's extremely convenient and seems to do a good job.

 

[MCMXI]

I decided to test the 43.4gr load with ten cases that I had annealed, bumped the shoulder back (to GO GAGE dimension), neck sized and trimmed to 1.910". I'm disappointed with the results. Accuracy was average and the velocities were all over the place. I shot these groups with the suppressor attached. I need to figure out why the ES is so high and why accuracy wasn't as good as the twice fired and neck sized cases. I might need to clean the barrel since I've shot a bunch of rounds now without cleaning. I'm going to try bumping the shoulder back a little more on annealed cases and maybe a little less too. My chamber is probably +.0025" over the GO GAGE (based on fired cases) so I bumped the shoulder back to the GO GAGE dimension. I was able to control the shoulder within .0005" which is good but back to the drawing board I go.

 

[jgh4445]

I went the .260 route with 130 gr BTHP Sierra Game Kings. and Norma brass. My rifle is a bone stock Sako Bavarian Carbine full stock. Not publishing the exact load due to the fact that, while there were no pressure signs at all on the brass fired in my rifle, they exceeded book max by a bit. Had about the same results, though, all of the groups were good, even the bad ones. I used 4350 but then, Win 760 was a great second.

 

[Peakbagger46]

Awesome! The Reloader line of powders seems to produce really good results for me as well.

 

[MCMXI]

I think I have the annealing process figured out for this cartridge. My first attempt at annealing took a major step backwards in terms of velocity and accuracy (see above). I'm fairly sure that I didn't achieve an even, consistent anneal. I use an induction annealer and I figured out that I need to run the cases through the annealer twice, roating the case 90° for the second annealing. I tried rotating the case using a cordless drill but it's simpler (better) to do it by hand. Also, I've figured out where the case needs to be positioned to achieve a consistent anneal from below the shoulder to the case mouth without overheating the neck. The bottom 5-shot group was shot using cases with the shoulder bumped back .006" below the chamber datum dimension. The top 5-shot group (best I've ever shot I think) was shot using cases bumped back .004" below the chamber datum dimension. I was aiming for .002" below but the improved anneal changed the effect of the setup on the die from the previous attempt. Regardless, there's a difference between the two groups that implies .004" is better than .006". I'll try .002" next and see if that works any better. The average velocity from these two groups dropped about 10 fps but the ES numbers of 25 fps is getting closer to what I'm looking for. Overall I'm really pleased with the load right now and will work on getting the ES down to 10 fps.

NOTE: Both groups shot with Dead Air Armament SANDMAN-S attached. Also, the barrel was cleaned using a foaming bore cleaner prior to shooting the two groups. Basically, there was no cold/clean bore POI shift.



Here's a photo of the most recent batch of annealed cases after loading.

 

[CANNONMAN]

WOW! Can I come visit for a week and cook and clean for some tutelage? How about a video? Pics of your annealing? The only primes sold around here a CCI and Winchester. I may be way off here but it seems that if ya'll had the choice, Winchester would win. If I buy on line, what would be your top choice? And, thanks so much for this thread. Picks coming...