6.5 Creedmoor or 30-06?

[Gtscotty]

Thanks for the heads up. I was actually quoting load data from the Nosler book. Between you and someguy2800 I learned something today.I guess I'm going to have to grow a man bun AND buy a 6.5 Creedmoor!

Whoa, whoa, whoa, being a stand-up adult in an internet discussion thread is simply not allowed. You need to stow that stuff and post something about my meager intelligence/manhood, stat!

Unfortunately my man bun is going to have to be a sides and back bun... Sort of a toilet-bowl bun

 

[Legionnaire]

I disagree for two very important points. The 260 rem was released with the wrong twist rate for the caliber. They were originally 1:10 and later 1:9. It needs a 1:8 to properly utilize the bullets available. The 2nd important point is that its too long. Even if you make a 260 barrel with 1:8 twist It will not fit in the magazine of most short action guns when loaded with 140 grain eld bullets out to the lands. What good is a cartridge that can't stabilize the bullets available for it and won't fit in the magazine if it did? The 6.5 corrected both of those by standardizing with a 1:8 twist and shortening the case length allowing longer bullets to be loaded to standard 308 OAL. Problem solved. They cemented its popularity by released it to market with excellent and cost effective match ammo to reach a market that otherwise was ignored, people who want long distance competitive ammo but don't reload. So its not just marketing fluff and a flashy name.

This is an eloquent explanation and you are exactly right. The .260 Rem is a great cartridge, and the 6.5 Creedmoor addressed its few weaknesses. Were I starting out today, I'd be in the 6.5 Creedmoor camp. But I got into 6.5s a while ago ...

 

[someguy2800]

As far as the calibers, .30-06 is neither particularly useful nor particularly efficient. The combination of relatively large bore, long action, small base, high taper, and shallow shoulder produces a cartridge that does less downrange for more powder, more recoil, and more rifle weight. It's too big for the vast majority of NA game, and too small for truly large game or as a stopping rifle for dangerous game.

The fact is it's a loser of a cartridge and the following for it exists entirely because it was a service rifle cartridge. Unless your concern is ammo available in very small rural stores, it offers no advantage over better designed cartridges. So this choice is easy - 6.5CM.

A 30-06 is a lot like a 67 chevelle. A new ford taurus is in every objective way is a better car, but I still like a 67 chevelle better.

 

[someguy2800]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, being a stand-up adult in an internet discussion thread is simply not allowed. You need to stow that stuff and post something about my meager intelligence and manhood, stat!

Unfortunately my man bun is going to have to be a sides and back bun... Sort of a toilet-bowl bun

How about a comb over bun?

 

[IWAC]

One well-established fact is: We shoot best with what kicks us least! Unfortunately, I have two character flaws that are great handicaps for a shooter. A genetic sensitivity to loud and sharp noises...a jet engine will make me want to run and hide! Fortunately, that has mostly been conquered by a good set of electronic earmuffs. The other is sensitivity to recoil.
"It's all in your" mind, and "Shoot it like a MAN!" Are often heard. Perhaps the mind thing is somewhat true...I was shooting my 257 Roberts, with 100 and 117 grain bullets, which is no heavyweight in the recoil department...doing fairly well....1 1/4" at 100 with the 117 gr., and 7/8" or so with the 100s. Immediately after, shooting my 77-22 in .22 Long Rifle, I had developed a significant flinch! I know my 77-22 doesn't kick!
The '06 and 308,and 270 are wonderful, proven cartridges that will take any game on the North American Continent, but despite evidence to the contrary, may be a bit on the lightish side for the great bears or feral Brahma bulls, which can be bigger than a fair-sized Cape Buffalo!

Scandinavians have used the 6.5 X. 55 Swede for elk (our Moose) for decades, but are required to prove they can shoot it before a license is issued. Not a bad Idea for Americans, too, given the craze for looooong range shooting that has emerged lately. Outdoor Life (I think)ran an article years ago about the level of recoil that most of us can handle....and it was determined that 75% of the recoil of the .270- 30-06 class calibers was a reasonable limit. The 7X57 MM Mauser recoil was the upper limit, and remarks like "I didn't know it would kick so much!" were common. A good recoil pad, and other recoil lessening devices are available, and are somewhat expen$ive, but do help, mostly increasing the weight of the gun.

The noted gun scribe and long-range competitor Jim Carmichael even admitted to becoming suddenly and detrimentally sensitive to the accumulated recoil of his '06 target rifle, and that led to him creating a couple of rounds, iirc, one the 6.5mm Cheetah for hunting/competition, and another one for varmints....only for the ballistic advantages, and lessened recoil.

IMNHO, if you want a rifle capable of hunting game, and useful for targets too, the 6.5 Creedmore, .260 Remington, or 6.5 X55 mm Swedish are good choices. Ballistics are essentially 3 peas on a pod and have as little recoil as you can expect in a true dual purpose gun. And, unlike my 257 Roberts, brass is available and plentiful, but can be expensive.

 

[adcoch1]

Thanks for the heads up. I was actually quoting load data from the Nosler book. Between you and someguy2800 I learned something today.I guess I'm going to have to grow a man bun AND buy a 6.5 Creedmoor!

Skip the man bun and just buy the rifle. You will thank me later...

 

[adcoch1]

A 30-06 is a lot like a 67 chevelle. A new ford taurus is in every objective way is a better car, but I still like a 67 chevelle better.

This fundamentally describes my love of the 30-06. I use them for do everything rifles, but i really like my lightweight small caliber efficient deer guns. And I like my big boomers too. As Llamabob stated, and i begrudgingly agree with, the 30-06 is too much gun for most uses and not enough for a stopping rifle. All that said the 6.5 creedmoor is an awesome modern cartridge that solves the fitment issues that kept the 260 from being popular. I will throw in that per your needs, a 7mm-08 is also a right answer.

 

[Paul7]

Why get a lightweight Tikka for target shooting? To me that only makes sense if you're hiking 10 miles a day while hunting. You'll shoot a heavier rifle more accurately, and more comfortably.

I have an older Sako .30-'06 that is on the heavy side, shooting 150 gr. is soft shooting. I imagine the lighter bullet weights even more so.

 

[someguy2800]

This fundamentally describes my love of the 30-06. I use them for do everything rifles, but i really like my lightweight small caliber efficient deer guns. And I like my big boomers too. As Llamabob stated, and i begrudgingly agree with, the 30-06 is too much gun for most uses and not enough for a stopping rifle. All that said the 6.5 creedmoor is an awesome modern cartridge that solves the fitment issues that kept the 260 from being popular. I will throw in that per your needs, a 7mm-08 is also a right answer.

I'm a ball of contradictions. I love the new ones, I love the old ones, I love the big ones, and I love the little one. This is a great hobby.

 

[Paul7]

As Llamabob stated, and i begrudgingly agree with, the 30-06 is too much gun for most uses and not enough for a stopping rifle.

How is a .30-'06 with a bigger bullet not enough for any game animal in North America? Photo below of an Oryx taken with a .30-'06 here in NM last month, one of the tougher game animals in the US. They've been known to kill lions in Africa.

 

[adcoch1]

How is a .30-'06 with a bigger bullet not enough for any game animal in North America? Photo below of an Oryx taken with a .30-'06 here in NM last month, one of the tougher game animals in the US. They've been known to kill lions in Africa.

Hunting anything in NA the 30-06 is fine with the right bullet. But as a stopping rifle for great bears or feral bovines, give me a lot larger diameter bullet!

 

[Llama Bob]

A 30-06 is a lot like a 67 chevelle. A new ford taurus is in every objective way is a better car, but I still like a 67 chevelle better.

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. There are guns I own purely for fashion/style reasons.

 

[horsey300]

How is a .30-'06 with a bigger bullet not enough for any game animal in North America? Photo below of an Oryx taken with a .30-'06 here in NM last month, one of the tougher game animals in the US. They've been known to kill lions in Africa.

Hunting does not necessarily equal stopping....... with the right loads (flame on) I could confidently HUNT everything in NA with a fiery 6mm, but for STOPPING, i put more faith in steamrolling .41 mag or larger, when i awoke from my .30 cal brainwashing, i traded my .300 Wm for a a dirt bike

 

[adcoch1]

My last 300wm went towards my elk shoulder mount. Kinda miss my old 300wm...

 

[cdb1]

if it was today, I am not sure I would pick a rosewood BAR in .270 Winchester...

Sounds like an awesome rifle to me. If you have pictures will you post some? I think BAR’s are seriously cool.

 

[LoonWulf]

My last 300wm went towards my elk shoulder mount. Kinda miss my old 300wm...

I miss mine like I miss the bruise it left on my shoulder by the second box......
Which means I'll build another.......

 

[Varminterror]

I'm a ball of contradictions. I love the new ones, I love the old ones, I love the big ones, and I love the little one. This is a great hobby.

Someone (I apologize to them that I forgot who, without taking time to look) sent me a PM on here a few months ago to which my answer was this same sentiment (albeit my response was naturally much longer). The PM asked why I was hunting with a 45-70 when most of my posting reflects me only as a “long range guy.”

I like to shoot, man, don’t matter what.

I also believe firmly in the message which is condensed well by Psalms 143:11 and 144:1, and as such, diverse firearms, weapons, and combatives training, practice, and sport are a part of my philosophy and enjoyment.

 

[Sappyg2.0]

Mostly target shooting. Some medium game hunting.

For guite some time my one and only rifle was a 243. Believe me it's been shot much more at paper targets than game. It has served me well.

Time goes on, still have it and others, and if I were to choose again I would likely make the same choice. But if I could only choose between the 6.5 or the 06 it would be the 6.5.

 

[horsey300]

I miss mine like I miss the bruise it left on my shoulder by the second box......
Which means I'll build another.......

My heavy stocked Weatherby wasn't bad, mind you, I knew the difference between 220s and 180s, but were I to do it over, instead of that thin 22" barrel, I think a #4 contour (heavy sporter/varmint depending on manufacturer) 20" tube with a can and heavy at-1 stock would be in order, the 7stw is factory ported but cooking out those 162s as fast as I am, I think it'll wear an at1 too, turned the wife's preaccutrigger .243 bruise generator into a kitten, nothing fancy but I'm liking it! Got a creed build that will wear one, brother in law is already saving up for one, and I've got a buddy who's thinking his '06 adl might get to wear one if he doesn't trade it in towards my 6.5 at1 combo lol, next is the 6.5 prc wanna put that in a bighorn with an adjustable, but I reckon by the time my kids grow up and their kids are sizing up rifles, the trending debates won't be between the 06 and anything so much as some 6.5 creed/prc vs the 7rem/prc vs 270wsm vs 6 creed vs the Valk......and one of us old fogeys will reference a Weatherby or Norma magnum starting with a 3 and we'll be laughed into a nursing home.

 

[Paul7]

Hunting anything in NA the 30-06 is fine with the right bullet. But as a stopping rifle for great bears or feral bovines, give me a lot larger diameter bullet!

I'm sure I'll never face either of those animals, but would be interested in hearing of any who weren't deterred by a 220 gr. .30-'06 bullet.

 

[horsey300]

I'm sure I'll never face either of those animals, but would be interested in hearing of any who weren't deterred by a 220 gr. .30-'06 bullet.

Bear spray deters
http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php/39728-30-06-for-Moose-and-Grizzly
Post 15

 

[taliv]

Thanks for the heads up. I was actually quoting load data from the Nosler book. Between you and someguy2800 I learned something today.I guess I'm going to have to grow a man bun AND buy a 6.5 Creedmoor!

260rem is still a dang good cartridge, with the right throat/twist and handloads
but having burnt out 11 barrels of 260AI over the years, mostly in competition, if i were looking for something in that class with a wee bit of umph, I'd run a 260AI in defiance's XM action which is just a bit longer and allows you to seat those bullets out a bit. 260rem would get the same advantage and increase your internal capacity cause the bullet wouldn't be stuffed so far in the case. I'm about 90% sure that if you used lapua palma 308 brass necked down, in a long action or xm action, you could push 140 class projos near 3100 without blowing yourself up. they were too hot when i ran them at 3047fps but very accurate and consistent. i mostly ran them around 3000 fps out of my short action with blem hornady 243 brass necked up and fire formed.

 

[ColoradoMinuteMan]

Honestly you lost me with the .260 Rem over the 6.5 CM. There is absolutely no practical difference between these cartridges and anyone who claims there is doing so on an emotional basis. All things remaining equal (rifling, barrel length, etc.) there are no practical performance advantages between them. If we’re talking about COAL and other cartridge fit-to-platform specifics, availability of your favorite factory load, etc. then I can see a preference for one or another, but that’s it. Performance wise, nada.

Under best case scenarios rounds like the 6.5 CM will absoloutly kill elk and moose out to 400 even 600 yards. When I say best case I mean the typical hunting show/magazine broadside pose with the hunter having a perfect prone rest and time to range said perfectly calm, perfectly posing critter on a sunny, windless evening. I would say that in real world hunting conditions in most of the country and in the situations which I hunt, that happens in about 5% of the kills I make.

Of course I don’t consider an 06 or the 6.5 CM to be a great choice for a long range hunting. Given similar velocity and similar bullet construction I’ll take a heavier, larger diameter bullet on large game every time. A 140 gr 6.5 round is not going to have the inertia to penetrate heavy bone and muscle like the 180 gr .308 round will. If you are doing long range hunting I’d go skip both the 06 and the 6.5 CM. Inside of say 500 yards on deer either will work, on stuff larger than deer, either will work but the 06 will work more “ better” under real world hunting conditions.

Don’t get me wrong the 6.5 CM is an okay round. But given the choice of quality 6.5 rounds available in a short action I’d take a .260 all day every day over the CM and a 6.5 PRC all day everyday and twice on Sunday over the CM. Or I can just shoot my daughters 6.5-06 in a standard action which gives 6.5 PRC performance and accuracy. In my opinion the 6.5 CM has only taken off over the .260 Remington due to a cool name a marketing hype. It offers nothing over a .260 Rem in fact it offers less.

Now back on topic.

If I was banging volume steel or paper and occasionally shooting a deer the 6.5 CM is the way to go. If I was buying a rifle for general hunting with the west included, and occasionally banging steel and paper I’d be looking more towards the 06.

Under best case scenarios rounds like the 6.5 CM will absoloutly kill elk and moose out to 400 even 600 yards. When I say best case I mean the typical hunting show/magazine broadside pose with the hunter having a perfect prone rest and time to range said perfectly calm, perfectly posing critter on a sunny, windless evening. I would say that in real world hunting conditions in most of the country and in the situations which I hunt, that happens in about 5% of the kills I make.

Of course I don’t consider an 06 or the 6.5 CM to be a great choice for a long range hunting. Given similar velocity and similar bullet construction I’ll take a heavier, larger diameter bullet on large game every time. A 140 gr 6.5 round is not going to have the inertia to penetrate heavy bone and muscle like the 180 gr .308 round will. If you are doing long range hunting I’d go skip both the 06 and the 6.5 CM. Inside of say 500 yards on deer either will work, on stuff larger than deer, either will work but the 06 will work more “ better” under real world hunting conditions.

Don’t get me wrong the 6.5 CM is an okay round. But given the choice of quality 6.5 rounds available in a short action I’d take a .260 all day every day over the CM and a 6.5 PRC all day everyday and twice on Sunday over the CM. Or I can just shoot my daughters 6.5-06 in a standard action which gives 6.5 PRC performance and accuracy. In my opinion the 6.5 CM has only taken off over the .260 Remington due to a cool name a marketing hype. It offers nothing over a .260 Rem in fact it offers less.

Now back on topic.

If I was banging volume steel or paper and occasionally shooting a deer the 6.5 CM is the way to go. If I was buying a rifle for general hunting with the west included, and occasionally banging steel and paper I’d be looking more towards the 06.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Honestly you lost me with the .260 Rem over the 6.5 CM. There is absolutely no practical difference between these cartridges and anyone who claims there is doing so on an emotional basis. All things remaining equal (rifling, barrel length, etc.) there are no practical performance advantages between them. If we’re talking about COAL and other cartridge fit-to-platform specifics, availability of your favorite factory load, etc. then I can see a preference for one or another, but that’s it. Performance wise, nada.

Agreed, I was most definitely spewing some emotional, campfire .260 fan boy, bovine scatology. Then I backed it up with a quick look at one reloading manual that I used to incorrectly verify my false bias. As mentioned previously I got schooled and appropriately by some of our members. To whom I am thankful BTW.

I kind of thought we already established that yesterday though.

 

[taliv]

Greg is being a little too humble. The 260 has its pros and cons. Just depends on the context. For factory rifles, sure the cm beats it. But with the right chamber and twist the 260 has some advantages