6-O'Clock vs. Center-Hold

[TrapperReady]

Right now, I'm shooting a 6-O'Clock for all HP stages. As I looked back over a bunch of targets tonight, it seems as though my offhand is pretty well stalled around 70 points.

I noticed during the last match, that I was having a heck of a time getting the sight to line up reliably at the 6-O'Clock position. Since there were a couple minutes left after I was done shooting my string, I dry-fired a few shots, trying a center-hold. I can't say for sure, but it felt a little easier.

Next time I get to the range, I intend to get a good center-hold zero worked out and try it in practice.

What do you use, and why do you like it? Is it recommended that you use the same sight picture for all targets? I was thinking of just using center-hold for the offhand, and 6-o'clock for the rest.

 

[Quantrill]

I started off with a 6o'clock hold and changed to a center hold later on. I would not "mix" holds, using only one for every thing. It was explained to me that a center hold is not quite as precise as a 6o'clock hold and therefore one does not try to hold the sight picture "exactly", thereby using time and energy that is not necessary. I know many fine shooters who use one or the other holds and I believe that either one can be used but I use the Center Hold. Quantrill

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

steve will give you some ideals on this as he is trying out a few new sight holds lately.

on a 200 reduced course I really find I can keep my scores close to the same either way.
have always done the 6 o'clock hold at reduced but shot my last match at 200 reduced with a center hold.
my score dropped to a 483 with something like 21 x's or so.

now I find I run across the same problem across the course for my holds as they go like this .
but remember this is just me also.

I find on off hand that I have a big tendency with a 6 hold to want to find a perfect shot and pass up alot of 10's and turn them into 9's or worse.
now with the center hold on off hand I take alot faster shots as you know if its in the middle of the black you just bang that trigger and the shot is in the black.
I get larger 10 counts with the center hold but less x's and alot less shots in the white.

now the two things I really find that happen between the two is this.
the 6 hold really makes you check you npa alot which is good but the center hold seems like such a easier shot that it makes you stop thinking about your npa and by doing that it causes you to get really bad shots if you do not check your npa often.

now at rapid sitting I right now am stuck on a 6 hold so that I can really define the shot as I find the center hold cause me to take the first good looking shot and that could be a 9 and thats not what I'am looking for.
but still trying to get used to that as I do believe the center hold is good but just not convident in it in my sitting yet.

at 300 rapid prone and back is where it really starts to pay off using the center hold.
on good constent light days a 6 hold for me means a clean at 300 with my shots going slightly left to right. but on bad light days which could be heat with mirage or heavy rain or snow the center hold becomes my friend with my shots going slight up and down but with a center on really nice days just hammers it in a knot.
so I find it works either way for me but I have both depending on the condition and whatI feel comfy with at the momment.
now back at 600 I have totally gone to a center hold in all conditions but also have the zero's for about 4 holds at 600 incase I need to use them and have used them all but the frame hold so far but it will be a blessing on a foggy or heavy misty day.

what the centerhold does forme is this.
#2 cures all elevation problems IF you watch your sights and just do not acept a sho tin the black.
I write down how many shots I lose to elevation at 600 now to make me really think about it and I have it down to 1 shot out the bottom in the 9 per 20 shots at 600 and thats because I gave it to much black.
#2 I get faster shots and alot less eye fatige with center at 600 because all I do is find the center and then go directly to the front sight post and disect it and then release the shot.

#3 it has allowed me to become alot better long range shooter as now I spend most all of my time with reading the wind instead of trying to work on the wind and light also.
as the center is always the center and the 6 position will change in every different light condition.

like steve can tell you it does seem wierd at 600 sometimes when you take the shot and call it fuzzy and not sure and you have just hit the spotter in the x ring for 3 shot in a row with a center hold.

I can keep you 10 ring wide for 9 out of 10 shots in most all wind conditions if I'am coaching but I will not or do not wish to tell you what your sight picture should look like in bad or good light as you are looking threw the sights not me.

gotta get to work maybe steve will finish this up.

 

[Steve Smith]

As Jon said, I'm experimenting with this now at 600 yards. TR (What the hell is your first name??), I woudn't be surprised if you go through several changes in every aspect of your HP career...holds being just one of them.

I have been using a 6 o'clock for over two years now. If the light is perfect, I know I can clean all the targets (offhand withstanding). However, if its REALLY hot, or the light shifts a lot, I'll have elevation problems like crazy. What would be a solid 197-198 score one day would barely break 190 the next when the light was different (from 600). Trying to determine exactly where the bottom of the black is can be nearly impossible sometimes. Sunday I had the luxury of practicing all day and Jon pulled the target for me. (we were also coaching some new shooters) He wanted me to shoot a center hold all day so I did. My first attempt at it was very frustrating because I'd never done it before. I hobbled through with a 184-?x and was very unhappy. I later convinced Jon to pull for me again and this time I got it figured out a good deal, and shot about a 194-?X(out of 200 as you know)...I'm sure that would have been higher if I'd had a larger aperture in the rear sight...it was much too small for that day. Also, the wind surprised me...I saw it but my correction was too small, and it was late in the day so I didn't want to make Jon wait for me to wait for the condition to come back. I DID notice that the largest elevation error I had in that last 20 shot string was only 9 ring high/wide. I was pretty surprised by that, and encouraged! I now have a larger aperture in the gun and the rest of the set in my bag just in case. I'll be shooting a center hold at the Leg match this weekend.

BTW, I think Jon was talking about me hitting the spotter several times...that told me that the hold was more accurate than I thought it would be. Now to work on hitting it 20 times in a row...................................................................


Post edited for clarity.

 

[TrapperReady]

Mike, it's Mike.

Looking at my targets, it does appear that vertical stringing is more pronounced than horizontal, especially in the offhand.

I'll try it for all positions and see how I like it.

As always, thanks for the help.

- Mike

 

[Steve Smith]

Thanks, Mike, nice to meet you. My previous post has been edited for clarity.

BTW, I can't help but wonder how many of the "views" are from pistol shooters peeking in here.

 

[TrapperReady]

BTW, how much time do you give an offhand hold before you give up and start again? By this, I mean that sometimes I will get my position locked in and try to get everything calmed down and sighted, but never feel comfortable with my sight alignment.

After maybe 10-15 seconds, I reach a point where it's no longer productive to try, so I lower the weapon, relax my shoulders, breathe deeply a couple times and try again.

I'd guess that roughly half my shots are taken in the early portion of those critical seconds, and the rest are sometime later (after I've been in position for a while). I've not been able to determine (yet) which group tends to be more accurate. If I had to guess, I'd bet the ones taken very shortly after "assuming the position" are more accurate.

With the sitting and prone, it's not much of an issue. My position is stable enough that I get the sight picture I want, focus on the front sight and if all stays good, touch off the shot. The blankity-blank offhand has enough movement that I end up second-guessing myself and trying for a "better" sight picture. And so often, the enemy of Good is Better.

- Mike

 

[Steve Smith]

I am starting to get better again with offhand and I think I'll be in the low 90's again this weekend or maybe better. When I shoot well I usually fire the shot within about 4-8 seconds after looking through the sights. If the shot is not there I bring it down and start over. If I waited 15 seconds I'd fire a 6 or worse. I have to work really hard on getting a good NPA and that makes a HUGE difference on how well I shoot offhand. You should spend all the time you can developing an NPA and dry firing before you start shooting for record.

At least I have stopped trying to copy other's positions and have developed one of my own that seems to work well.

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

mike hi!
thats the toughest thing to fix and one of the easiest to tell you about.
does not sound right does it and thats why its tough.

we all remember that off hand shot and shots that come so easy and smooth and up pops that solid 10 or x, it seems so easy sometimes.
and then that next shot just does not feel right and you find your self moving the rifle back and forth and either take a bad shot that turns out a very bad shot because you just refuse to start over.

the HARDEST thing in off hand is not taking the shot.
what I mean is telling your self in that split second to get your finger off tyhat trigger.
its so easy to just pop it when it gets close.

alot of folks tell you to put it down in say 6 to 8 seconds and that time varies with who you are talking about.

I will put it this way if you have your npa right and then go threw each step of your building your off hand position untill the shot you will get alot better.
that second thing for me is like in the wind when you have no choice.
I know the instant I look down the sights if my position is not right. because it is not staying in the 10 or x but it is moving around or off to one side of the black or the other.

it does not mean to speak that your npa has changed but more than likely that some thing in your position has changed.

try this.
#1 after you have found your npa and do not move your feet.
#2 put the round in and close the bolt.
#3 grab the rifle the same exact way with your front hand on EVERY shot
#4 grab the pistol grip and put the stock into your shoulder in EXACTLY the same position and spot in your shoulder EVERY time.
#5 twist and lean your body in the same exact way and in the same exact position every time the exact same.
#6 rest your front arm on your side for support at the same exact place on your side or hip and I mean the same place even if you have to mark it.
#7 place your head the same exact way on the stock with the head the same distance every time.
#8 go in to the shot picture the same every time wither it is from the top down threw the target or from either side.

thats alot of steps and I left out some.
think of it as building a engine or something would you put it together and not check the rings or to make sure the bearings are in right, the same goes for building your off hand.
every other position you can use muscle memory but in off hand it will get you a bad shot more often than it will get you a good shot.
when you are doing the steps above and you find something is not the same exact way as before STOP and get it right before you go to the next step.
just puttin gthe rifle to your shoulder and then trying to get it right just ain'ta gonna work very often.

told you it was not going to be easy

 

[TrapperReady]

jc121 - As usual, your adice makes a lot of sense, but can be a little more difficult in actual practice.

This all leads to another question. I've been using the "nose to charging handle" technique to get an easily reproducable sight picture. It works great in all positions except offhand.

I'm roughly 5'7" tall and in the offhand, I end up with the stock VERY high in my shoulder pocket (like almost not in there) when I put my nose to the charging handle. If I put the stock firmly in my shoulder, then I can't creep my head far enough forward.

Do you think I'm better off planting the stock firmly into my shoulder and then using whatever sight picture seems more natural, or going for the sight picture first, and the gun-mount secondary to that?

BTW, I've reviewed the pics that Steve posted a while ago, and I think the stock is even higher for me, although I notice that he doesn't use the "nose to charging handle" technique for offhand.

 

[Steve Smith]

The nose to charging handle technique is a good thing for prone and maybe sitting if your body can accomodate it, but for standing, just find a good comfortable place to put your head. If you put a piece of tape on the stock (so you can find it with your face) you'll get a consistent cheek weld.

You are the same size I am (5'7" and 175 lbs if I eat right) and Jon is a little shorter, so neither of us are going to tell you to do something impossible for your body type.


BTW, my new (and more stable) standing position looks nothing like those pics. Most notably the rifle comes across my body more so my head does not tilt, and I have a slight cant to also help prevent head tilt.

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

steve uses that hold with his nose to the charging handle to hide his features from the other shooters so they do not frighten by his looks.




LOL

you can not get your site picture first because that means you have not followed any steps to get to that point.
I have gone to that method but I'am finding that I do not likeit for off hand but do like it for the other positions.
trust me its hard but off hand is the most rewarding thing if you can get it down.

and remember each shot is a match unto its self in off hand

 

[cookhj]

i have always used a 6 o'clock hold but it is easier to shoot offhand with a COM hold. it's not good to mix your holds, but whatever makes you comfortable. if you want to shoot COM for offhand and 6 o'clock for everything else, AND you can do it good, there's no reason to change. but that's something i would experiment with in the off season more so than in the middle of the season.

 

[Chris Rhines]

BTW, I can't help but wonder how many of the "views" are from pistol shooters peeking in here.

At least one.

I started out shooting a 6-O'Clock hold for bullseye, but quickly switched to a center hold and never looked back. The center hold is far, far superior.

Shooting 6:00, your mind subconciously tries to force you to hold the sights perfectly aligned with the bottom center of the target. This is stressful, it increases your wobble area, and it can lead to 'freezing' on the trigger. With a center hold, I just put the front sight in the middle of the target, let my arc of motion minimize, and shoot tens. (Well, some nines. And a few eights...)

I've started using a red-dot sight on my competition gun. If you're limited to irons for whatever you shoot, the same technique still applies, but you might consider a colored front sight. Helps it stand out from the black a bit more.

- Chris

 

[gixxersixxer]

Originally posted by Steve Smith:

I have been using a 6 o'clock for over two years now. If the light is perfect, I know I can clean all the targets (offhand withstanding). However, if its REALLY hot, or the light shifts a lot, I'll have elevation problems like crazy. What would be a solid 197-198 score one day would barely break 190 the next when the light was different (from 600).

My coach told he that when there is light directly on the target the target appears smaller. When a shadow occurs on the target it appears larger. Have you tried using different colored lenses? Red and yellow tints are supposed to relaxe the eye I think. I noticed this shooting free pistol at 50 yds in Phoenix. For on series the sun would be shining down hard then after we changed targets a cloud would roll over. I could actually see my groups move up and down a little.

 

[Steve Smith]

You coach is correct. There is a saying "lights up sights up" and it works. I have considered different colored lenses, but since I have switched to a center hold I should not have the problems with light that are associated with the 6 o'clock hold. The center is always the center. I really don't care for the lens method, since #1 I might become a slave to changing lenses several times per match and #2 I do not require any corrective vision apparati.

 

[Fatelvis]

I get better scores using the 6 Oclock hold, but I like center holds` POA/POI relation outside of competition. I like to know I can pick up my rifle, and go hunting, without compensating for the 6 Oclock zero, previously used on the range. I may be handicapping myself, but I use center hold all the time, to simplify things for me.

 

[falconer]

I generally shoot with a slight sub 6 hold. Generally speaking, 6 is better for precision (slowfire) shooting and centerhold is better for sustained fire, according to the AMU.

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

I used a center hold at 600 at raton on sat.
bright light with the typical cloud moving threw.
lost 1 point to a wind let off and missed two light changes a 9 and a 8 out at 6.
ended up with a 196-8x in a wind of only 8 to 12 or so but with alot of let offs and switches.
I was the high shooter in master at 600 with only tubb and 2 others with 199's or 198's.
my hold was a center hold.
butt with a center hold you can keep it in the center a whole lot more consitancy that with any others.
but on given days you need all the hold.
frame
center
flat tire
six
line of white
and I can go on but you get the picture.
at 600 around here with a center hold with the winds we always have you need a real consitant shot group.
but on sunday here in co. I only had a 192-5x at 600 and got caught on two try's for 9's and the others were either because of me or the light as it was really windy and raining hard.

I really find the following to happen.
I find that I rest my eyes more when I shoot with a 6 hold as it is alot more fatiging.
but at 600 with a center hold I take hardly no breaks and just keep shooting which is most likely why I end up losing a few shots out the bottom along with a know fact that I will take a few shots low by having to much black above the front post.

will work on that.
at 300 prone I can clean it with either a center hold or 6 hold but have switched over to a center hold the last few months because I always know where the center is.
it really helps in a no sighter match at 300 and 600 because the light does not affect that hold much.
it allows me to keep inside of the 10 ring and just worry more on the wind.
at 200 a 6 hold is a great hold but on those days where you cannot judge the light effect on the target you aer going to lose alot of points.
thanks jon

 

[Steve Smith]

Jon's results are the same as mine.

Had some wind trouble at the NM EIC match yesterday at 600 yards, and for a sec I tried a 6 o'clock shot to see if I was doing something dumb with my sights. Nope...x with 6 o'clock, ran the sight back down to my center mass zero and x again. Continued to use center for the rest of the string (about 14 shots left) and fired 12 or 13 10's or x's in those 14 shots. I think this center hold business is ok.

 

[InTheBlack]

How many MOA is it between COM and 6-o-clock on the full-sized course targets?

On the 100 yard reduced, the black is +/- 3 inches radius on all of them, so its simple enough to do the switch, but I still have to fine tune it by a click once see where it hits (I have 1/2 MOA clicks).

 

[Steve Smith]

The aiming black on all Highpower targets are a 6 minute diameter or a 3 minute radius regardless of distance. IOW, of you are at 600 yards and you are blown by the wind to the edge of the black, you need to move three minutes to get to the center Same adjustment at 100 yards for an edge-of-black shot. Throw inches out the window and forget they exist in this game.

Now in practice, the change in elecation is different. I change 10 1/4 MOA clicks from a 6 o'clock to a center hold. That's 2.5 minutes, not the full three. We all look through sights differently and we also interpret different things as being "correctly lined up" so you will have to do some testing to determine what it means for you.

 

[ks_shooter]

Steve,

The range where I compete uses a standard MR military target at 500 yards for the slow prone match. This target has an aiming black out to the 8-ring (24 inches) instead of the 7-ring (36 inches) like the 600 yard MR-1 target. Since the scoring rings are the same, it is more forgiving to shoot the MR target at 500 yards than the MR-1 at 600 yards. But the aiming black of the MR target appears to be 4.8 MOA instead of 6 MOA like the MR-1. Not sure why it was setup to be this way by the CMP/NRA, but I know that it causes my sight picture and center-to-6 o'clock zero change to be different at 500 yards than at the other lines.

 

[Steve Smith]

ick

Good catch, if you're right. I've never even seen that 500 yard target. Kinda messes up the 3 minute radius that the 2, 3, and 600 yard targets enjoy.

 

[ks_shooter]

As I understand it, the 600 yard MR-1 target is contructed by putting a 600 yard repair center (MR-1C) over the face of a 500 yard MR target. The only difference being that the 7-ring is black instead of white.