60 days to disarm

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Telewins
You seem unaware that soldier are only supposed to obey the LAWFUL orders of those officers appointed over them.

This was hashed out in great detail after My Lai. If LT Calley orders you to shoot the women and children, you are NOT to obey his UNLAWFUL orders. In fact, you must SHOOT LT CALLEY if that is required to protect the noncombatants.

Ditto the President or SCOTUS. If 5 clever radicals infiltrate the SCOTUS and declare that [insert minority here] may be rounded up and gassed, per the President's orders, or the Congress' laws, we are NOT obligated to click our heels like Nazis, salute, and obey.

If SCOTUS upholds a new law declaring the 2nd amd is only applicable to flintlocks, or the "militia" is today's National Guard (under federal control) then we are NOT obligated to obey their unlawful orders.

At that point, they are the DOMESTIC ENEMIES our founding fathers warned us against. We are to protect the Constitution against all enemies, foreign AND DOMESTIC, we are not to obey the unlawful orders of DOMESTIC ENEMIES of the Constitution.

SCOTUS need only uphold a ban on firearms to find out where the ultimate power in this nation exists.
 
I do not advocate overthrowing the government. I do not advocate anarchy, communism, or socialism. While I have never been an anarchist, socialist, or communist, I have known far too many to not realize that overthrowing the government is not the solution. I do not advocate marching as little more than petty thugs killing soldiers in the streets, provoking attacks from the citizenry that we say we will protect. To take up arms against the country to which you have sworn alliegance is the refuge of those who are too stupid to find other ways. There are two things that I DO advocate.

First, if laws infringing on our basic rights, ones which can NOT be taken away are put forth, we must get those who support them out of office. They do not represent us, and they have violated an oath they have made to uphold those rights. They can NOT be our representatives if they do that, as they become traitors to our country. The ninth circle of hell is reserved for them, and while I do not wish to speed them on their way there, they MUST be removed from office.

Assuming that this fails, of which there is always the possibility, I believe the only option may be secession. This is the last resort. This is what is done when our country sinks so low as to allow traitors and megalomaniacs to take away our basic rights. We should no longer allow them to do that, and whatever land we can gather together should no longer be a part of the land that the traitors corrupt.

There are risks that come with secession, and you will never hear me say that there are not. This is why it is the last resort. The government has previously proven that they will not allow secession, over 130 years ago. Whether they will simply say "Fine, leave" or whether they will decide that we cannot be allowed to leave is not up to us.

However, I do call your attention to one previous example of this. In fact, it is because of a group of men that thought that their rights were being infringed that the United States was formed.

I leave it as this.
 
Why is it constantly repeated and assumed that because a person or group disagrees with a point of view it must be because they don't understand the issue, don't know its an illegal order, or they are brainwashed. You must remember that 99%+ of all American patriots are law abiding citizens, not misfits or anarchists. When does a rebel become a patriot....only AFTER (and if) they win their revolution!

It might be wise to realize that an unpopular order or an order you disagree with does NOT MAKE IT ILLEGAL. You are expected to assume that the order is legal unless you KNOW it to be illegal.

CRIME - A crime is a wrongdoing classified by the state or Congress as a felony or misdemeanor. NOTE: it doesn't say PERSONAL OPINION may determine what is a crime.

Uniform Code of Military Justice

(2) Disobeying superior commissioned officer.

(a) Lawfulness of the order.

(i) Inference of lawfulness. An order requiring the performance of a military duty or act may be inferred to be lawful and it is disobeyed at the peril of the subordinate. This inference does not apply to a patently illegal order, such as one that directs the commission of a crime.

(ii) Authority of issuing officer. The commissioned officer issuing the order must have authority to give such an order. Authorization may be based on law, regulation, or custom of the service.

(iii) Relationship to military duty. The order must relate to military duty, which includes all activities reasonably necessary to accomplish a military mission, or safeguard or promote the morale, discipline, and usefulness of members of a command and directly connected with the maintenance of good order in the service. The order may not, without such a valid military purpose, interfere with private rights or personal affairs. However, the dictates of a person’s conscience, religion, or personal philosophy cannot justify or excuse the disobedience of an otherwise lawful order. Disobedience of an order which has for its sole object the attainment of some private end, or which is given for the sole purpose of in-creasing the penalty for an offense which it is expected the accused may commit, is not punishable under this article.
 
My prediction (if this were to happen): they don't give us 60 days, they give us 15. 60 days would allow too much time for debate and organization of opposition. Secondly, it seems that the more likely scenario is that first they ask us to register our guns, then they confiscate them.

So perhaps the first question should be; Would you register (ALL?!) of your guns if that became the 'law'?

To answer the question as posed in this thread, I don't think that out-of-the-blue there will be a call to give up our guns in some finite period of time. I think that we will see this coming, it will happen in stages, we will be fighting through the system all along, and if it were to come to pass that we were truly faced with this decision, we would have months to prepare (physically and mentally).

If Bush signs the '94 ban into law instead of letting it sunset, that would surely be a major wake-up call (again!). It's a lot easier to fight this with money -- since that's the only thing that drives decisions in our government -- than with bullets. If everyone who owns a gun gives $$$ to national gun organizations, and they work through the political system, we may be able to simply use the existing system to get the votes to go our way. Buy our freedoms? Ugly, isn't it. The alternative is better or worse?
 
Buy our freedoms? Ugly, isn't it.

Buying my freedom has always been philosophically repugnant to me, but as a pragmatic matter, I agree it's the way to go.

Lots of people have spent lots and lots of money on legislative and public "information campaigns" designed to show how "evil" firearms are, and to capitalize on ignorance and emotion.

In short, our opponents have paid a great deal of money to splinter our rights. We're going to have to pay money to get back that which is rightfully ours in the first place.

It disgusts me, but our choices are limited to either that, or do nothing and let everything decay to the point where the long, last walk to the gun vault is necessary.
 
MyRoad:
You and I are in close agreement. In my novel, after the "Stadium Massacre" which takes place on opening day of the Redskins season, in front of dozens of Senators and Congressmen, they allow only one week to turn in all semi-auto rifles.

Forget about registration: they have a very close list any time they want it. You purchased 500 rounds of .223 or .308 or 7.62X39 with a credit card 5 years ago? They know it. Dotto that catalog order of extra 30 round mags. They have it.

In my scenario, they announce a 7 day turn in period, with a 5 year mandatory minimum for holdouts who keep their semi-autos.

Then they announce a $5,000 reward for tipsters leading to the arrest of holdouts.

Just how many people know you have a semi-auto rifle? Ever get into a pissing contest with one of them? How about an ex-girlfriend or ex-wife?

Are you willing to go to prison for 5 years if one of them drops a dime on you? A tip, plus those old credit card ammo order records, could lead to a "3AM flash-bang hello" with the JBTs smashing down your front door.

Now, I don't think such a gun ban scheme would work, even after a "super Columbine." But the fedgov might THINK it would work, and try it.

What then? Bury your guns?

bookcover.jpg
 
Telewinz: So it all comes down to "obey lawful orders" and "subordinates must assume they are lawful, unless they are clearly unlawful."

Clear as mud, my friend. So if LT Calley orders you to machine gun children, what will you do?

Next case: you are a member of your state National Guard. You are activated and your unit is ordered to begin "cordon and search" ops to remove "illegal" semi-auto rifles from holdouts, who are violating a new federal law banning them. Five radical left wing members of SCOTUS have said only flintlocks are protected under the 2A.

So you are ordered to climb in the Humvee in your cammie uniform with your M-16A2, to go out with your NG company to search for and confiscate "illegal" semi auto rifles. Those are the night's orders.

Are they, to you, legal orders?

Will you obey those orders, and come to my house to confiscate my semi auto rifles?

What will you do if I refuse to open my door and permit a search, and you are ordered to open up on my house with a 50 caliber from the ring mount on your humvee?

I ask these questions in all sincerity.

Matt Bracken
 
geekWithA.45

"Lots of people have spent lots and lots of money on legislative and public "information campaigns" designed to show how "evil" firearms are, and to capitalize on ignorance and emotion."

That how our whole political system has worked for the last 200 plus years. Their is no difference no matter if it's 2nd amendment rights or whether a farmer gets paid NOT to plan crops or increase his dairy herd. Thankfully the NRA is a master at this "process" and we enjoy gun benefits we do.
 
I'm so glad you're online.

I can't wait to read your detailed and honest reply to my last quetion addressed in all seriousness to the hypotheical NG soldier Telewinz.
 
Storm's coming. Molon Labe.

We know its coming. The biggest threat to this country is not really the gubmint par se', b/c we know what they're up to and they are fairly predictable. The bigger threat is the well intentioned but confused types who will profit on turning you and yours in "for the sake of the country":rolleyes:

Success = Work + Play + Keeping your mouth shut.
(Albert Einstein)
 
Robert Heinlein....hmmmm

I read his books when I was very young, "Space Cadet", "Between Planets" and "Citizen of the Galaxy". I didn't know he wrote fiction on the American system of government too.:D Did he get any Sci-Fi awards for his "government writings"?

Travis McGee: assuming this is not a trick question

"If SCOTUS upholds a new law declaring the 2nd amd is only applicable to flintlocks, or the "militia" is today's National Guard (under federal control) then we are NOT obligated to obey their unlawful orders.

At that point, they are the DOMESTIC ENEMIES our founding fathers warned us against."

You are expressing a personal opinion, not ruling on a point of law are you Judge?

The final judge of whether an order would be legal or not would be a court of law. With our (USA) current LAWS it would not be a lawful order but if the law were changed and upheld by the courts then it's legal although unpopular (like our abortion laws). BTW: how often is the NG NOT under state control?

From the UCMJ;

"An order requiring the performance of a military duty or act may be inferred to be lawful and it is disobeyed at the peril of the subordinate."

Again being unpopular does not make a law illegal or immoral, if you are in the military you swore an oath to obey lawful orders, whats the problem, what don't you understand?

For me, I would obey my orders (and pry your gun from your cold dead fingers, if legally ordered to do so) and donate part of my pay to the NRA to help overturn the law by peaceful means.

Did this answer your question Travis? If not, let me know.:)

BTW; What the Hell does SCOTUS mean? Is it radical right wing thought/speak (1984)? I hope this doesn't turn into another WACO debate.:uhoh:
 
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telewinz, have you ever heard the term 'color of law'?

Have you the right to think for yourself, or must you only obey the programming?:D

slightly tongue in cheek there so don't take that too personally.;)
 
Edward429451

Why do you insist that because I disagree with your (and others) point of view that I am NOT thinking for myself.

I have a simple question, what government that ever existed was/is "more perfect" than our current government. I will not agree that little or no government is the "more perfect" government as our founding fathers felt in their day 200 plus years ago.

Some 3rd World nations have your "perfect" government and look at how much freedom their citizens have.:barf:
 
It was this statement;

For me, I would obey my orders (and pry your gun from your cold dead fingers, if legally ordered to do so) and donate part of my pay to the NRA to help overturn the law by peaceful means.

Coupled with this;



The final judge of whether an order would be legal or not would be a court of law.

So I figured 2+2=4

Please correct me if my math was off. Being ordered to go kill citizens and not questioning the validity of the order and/or waiting for the courts to decide the validity of same order sounds like a killer robot. No offense.
 
Again you ASSUME I did not question the validity of the order. Their are no significant orders I don't question (at least privately) daily, now THAT you may assume. I would not follow an illegal order but I would follow a legal one. Soldiers swear an oath to do so and accept the "mans" money in compensation.

The government in place in the late 1700's (confederation?) was little to no government and even our forefathers knew it would not work. Little to no government is what an anarchist desires and is not a reasonable/sane choice in today's World IMHO.
 
Again you ASSUME I did not question the validity of the order. Their are no significant orders I don't question (at least privately) daily, now THAT you may assume. I would not follow an illegal order but I would follow a legal one.

Correct. I did assume you would not question the order based on your earlier statement;

Where does it say ANY private citizen may LAWFULLY act based on their PRIVATE opinion/definition of the Constitution?

So you made it sound like you would follow orders until told otherwise by your superiors. But by that time half your neighbrohood would be dead at your hand...Nuremburg ring any bells?



I would not follow an illegal order but I would follow a legal one.

Based on who's interpretation of illlegal? The courts? After the massacre? We ARE "We the People" and all that so when exactly does our opinions come into play as significant? Its not we the serfs, is it?

Respectfully....
 
"WE the (majority) people " have chosen this form of government (a Republic) and system of justice.

"We the people" have (with due process) enpowered our present court system to interpretate the legality of our laws and Constitution. Their will always be a part of the population who is unhappy with our "system". Being unhappy with our system does not mean our system is wrong or unjust or illegal, NO government ever had 100% support from it's citizens, NONE!
 
Telewinz:
"For me, I would obey my orders (and pry your gun from your cold dead fingers, if legally ordered to do so)..."

I take it you would also obey "lawful orders" to catch runaway slaves and return them to plantations, or obey LT Calley's "lawful orders" to machine gun women and children?

Thus are laid the seeds of the next Civil War, or, more likely, Dirty War. For if the NG obeys orders to machine gun the houses of gun-owning refuseniks, then to millions of Americans, myself included, the NG will be in our eyes a "domestic enemy" of the constitution. As such, if you were in that NG, you would be a fair target, in or out of uniform, on or off duty.

Don't think the only danger to domestic enemies and traitors would issue from the barrels of barricaded refuseniks in hopeless standoffs and massacres. The greater danger would come off duty when that traitor was walking across the parking lot, in civvies, at the local Target store. THAT is what a Dirty Civil War would look like.

The constitution was not written in Latin or Greek to be interpreted for us mere peons by black-robed oracles, who may declare that up is down, or 2+2=499. It was written in plain English for plain Americans to read and understand.

If you want to stand at some point in the future with 5 black-robed domestic enemies, 5 traitors to the Constitution, that is your choice. I will choose to defend the Constitution against ALL enemies, foreign AND DOMESTIC, as I swore to do long ago.

And I will not bow like a "good Nazi" or a robot and agree that up is down, wrong is right, or I don't have a right to keep and bear arms, no matter what 5 black-robed commissars may declare in the future.

Remember, the greatest danger to traitors and domestic enemies of the Constitution will not come when they are in uniform, during "cordon and search" operations to confiscate "illegal" (sic) firearms. Remember it well.

snakelogo.jpg
 
Travis McGee

First, Lt. Calley's orders WERE ILLEGAL, has anyone ever said differently? The attempted cover-up was to protect Calley, not condone what he had done. Also you are naive if you believe that the American troops had to be "ordered" to kill, Calley just permitted it. Maybe you are not old enough to remember but their was a very intense hatred and disrespect for the Vietnamese, the sorrow in this country was mainly for Calley, not the dead villagers.

Again, we pick and chose which laws to enforce (the ones we like?). You may have taken a sworn oath to do your duty and obey legal orders yet if you disagree with the order just say its illegal and you are off the hook, Right? What if you are a pedophile (nothing personal), its OK, YOU feel it's perfectly legal because it serves your purpose to believe so. Certainly other pedophiles will agree with you and flock to support your legal defense fund to overturn that "illegal" anti-pedophile law. "Arise all free Americans, come to the defense of your fellow countrymen against our oppressive government".

I can here it now, "being a pedophile is MY natural God given right. It's as old as man himself. Some of our forefathers may have been pedophiles. NO court should make (illegal?) laws banning my god given right. And if anyone does, well watch out, we pedophiles will revolt!" Next would be the drunk drivers.

As far as pre-Civil War slavery, it was immoral (depending on your culture) not illegal. It is quite possible for a law to be legal and yet be viewed by some as immoral (our abortion laws?). Our laws have become very complex yet you would permit Joe Sixpack to pick and choose which laws to follow. Joe Sixpack isn't qualified to serve on the bench or become a member of the Bar, some aren't ever qualified to serve on a jury. You ask for mob rule, or is it just the second amendment that would enjoy your "special" license?
 
This entire thread has me in awe. :what:

Now, I agree with what most of you are saying, but some, like telewinz, have got me really wondering what in the hell is wrong with America.

So, to prove my point, I'll give you a little bit of info:

#1 The Document: Bill of Rights (Preamble)
What it says:
THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution.
What it means: It's 1791. You've just been through a 7 year war, the failure of the Articles of Confederation, the painful drafting and acceptance of the U.S. Constitution. People noticed that there was quite a bit of GRAY AREA in the Constitution -- the way you see which will decided whether you are a conservative, liberal, or a moderate (aka: indecisive dumb@$$) -- and were AFRAID that it would be open to future corruption, leading to tyranny. You just ESCAPED tyranny, so why would you go out of your way to write a governing document that would take you back? As for the "wanna-be survivalist" talk, take a look -- THESE people were afraid of government too. These people WERE NOT elected officials, they were educated, philosophical people who had opinions on which governing documents were based.

Once again the entire goal of the United States of America was to establish and preserve FREEDOM and LIBERTY; It was never about any form of security, other than the security that you get when you use your GOD-GIVEN freedoms to their intended purposes.

#2 The Document: The Bill of Rights.
What it says:
Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
What it means: When new laws are made, or when the constitution is modified, those laws MAY NOT overturn or modify the Bill of Rights. It also means that just because something isn't specifically listed in the Bill of Rights, that doesn't mean it isn't a legitimate right. For example: the bull???? argument that "Driving is not a right, it's a privelege -- the Constitution says nothing about having a right to drive a car," is COMPLETELY Constitutionally infirmed.

#3 The Document: The Bill of Rights.
What it says:
Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
What it means: If the Constitution doesn't say that the government can do it, THEY CAN'T DO IT. The more "grayish" areas are up to the States and the People to decide. So, with this definition, it means that IT HAS BEEN DOCUMENTED that a conservative outlook on the government is THE correct stance, period.

#4 The Document: The Declaration of Independence.
What it says:
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
What it means: That when you've finally had it, and want nothing to do with those who are denying you your very God-given rights, fine; But they ought to at least tell them why, out of respect.

#5The Document: The Declaration of Independence.
What it says:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
What it means: Gee, where to start? Even if there was no such thing as government, you would still have rights. God, or Nature, whichever you prefer, has given them to everyone. You have but to claim them.

The only legitimate purpose of government is to protect your rights. Not to make you safe.

When the government forgets this small fact, it's time to change. You have a right and a duty to do this. But it should not be done for frivolous reasons. Society is generally more disposed to "bear their cross" than to make a stink, but eventually the time to make a stink will come. That time is when the governmental patterns all lead to all-out slavery (that sound familiar?), and your job is to put together a new gov't.

So there's the difference between someone who knows American principles and an Anarchist -- The former will instate a form of government that will correct the reasons for revolution/rebellion/"the big stink," whereas the latter will not instate a new form of government.

:scrutiny:

And if you just plain won't respect the founding fathers, then we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Wes :scrutiny:
 
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