Dog Soldier
member
What ever the reason? It has been run for years by the Anti-Gun Media.
60 Minutes story about Remington 700 triggers?
- Thread starter Sniper66
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Did anyone see the 60 minute program in OP? It was advertised but not aired Sunday, at least in S. Tx. Found the preview which raises some questions in my mind as to the subject of that program.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-preview-the-remington-700/
Regards,
hps
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-preview-the-remington-700/
Regards,
hps
I know how 700's work, have had 7 of them, three 600's and a Model 7 too.
Changed springs, set them to safe adjustment, sealed screws and tested them- indeed, never had a problem with one (other than the two I bought that prev owners jacked up-which were made fine by me).
'Scuz me................coyotes going crazy outside.
Kid never heard them around the house.
Anyway, me prev comment about running rounds in and out of the chamber was not about removing the first round..............it was how after getting that one out, folks rack that bolt, fully chambering and removing rounds, like they were on crack.
Seen it way too often, with triggers folks are proud to declare they worked on. All sorts of rifles too.
Hell, I have heard quite a few warn people that the triggers could trip, so just close the bolt real easy like...........
Changed springs, set them to safe adjustment, sealed screws and tested them- indeed, never had a problem with one (other than the two I bought that prev owners jacked up-which were made fine by me).
'Scuz me................coyotes going crazy outside.
Kid never heard them around the house.
Anyway, me prev comment about running rounds in and out of the chamber was not about removing the first round..............it was how after getting that one out, folks rack that bolt, fully chambering and removing rounds, like they were on crack.
Seen it way too often, with triggers folks are proud to declare they worked on. All sorts of rifles too.
Hell, I have heard quite a few warn people that the triggers could trip, so just close the bolt real easy like...........
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Isn't that ironic? It was to replace the unsafe Walker trigger and it has problems of its own.
Whether or not anybody likes the media airing these stories, the numerous court cases lost by Remington attest to the problems of the systems How it was that Remington was claimed the gun was safe on one hand and issuing a recall, now recalls, on the other is beyond me.
"Seen it way too often, with triggers folks are proud to declare they worked on. All sorts of rifles too.
Hell, I have heard quite a few warn people that the triggers could trip, so just close the bolt real easy like..........."
Ummm......that should be a clue.
Anyone know the story of the youngster who spent 5 years in prison....apparently involving a 700....that was supposed to air on 60 minutes last Sunday? (See link in my last post) Sure is curious.
Regards,
hps
Hell, I have heard quite a few warn people that the triggers could trip, so just close the bolt real easy like..........."
Ummm......that should be a clue.
Anyone know the story of the youngster who spent 5 years in prison....apparently involving a 700....that was supposed to air on 60 minutes last Sunday? (See link in my last post) Sure is curious.
Regards,
hps
Sistema1927
Member
I have never had a problem with my .30-06 721 (c. 1950), but I did register it on the Remington recall site, and will be interested as to what comes out of the final hearing the middle of this month.
At the same time, I always make sure that I don't point it at anything I am not willing to destroy, especially when releasing the safety.
At the same time, I always make sure that I don't point it at anything I am not willing to destroy, especially when releasing the safety.
Sunray
Member
"60 Minutes" is and always has been notoriously anti-firearm biased. To the point of broadcasting outright lies.
"The guns of autumn" was one of many.
"The guns of autumn" was one of many.
Nature Boy
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I bet I haven't watched an episode of 60 Minutes in 20+ years.
Can't say that I've missed it.
Can't say that I've missed it.
I have seen some guns where when put on safe, and then taken off safe it would not trip, but if put on safe, the trigger pulled (did not fire) and then with finger off trigger, taken of safe....it would trip.
Must have been some movement in trigger system when on safe.
Wonder how many AD's were from a "clutch" like that?
Must have been some movement in trigger system when on safe.
Wonder how many AD's were from a "clutch" like that?
Llama Bob
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Yup, they went from one failure to another. It's like a pattern or something...
As usual we discuss the inherent danger and accept it, but nobody quotes numbers.
Why, and why is it important?
We have an issue regarding the trigger, but what isn't reported is how many were actually affected and who decided that it was the trigger. Stating "it can do it" but not eliminating Joe Bubba adjusting it incorrectly or simple malfeasance and mishandling of the firearm means there is no finite set of "It really happened this many times."
What we have left is OPINION, not fact, and that means we can't measure it and compare it against other similar guns to see if it's out of the ordinary. Which brings up that other guns are discharged by involuntary means, too, which is rarely discussed.
The old school method of jacking rounds thru the chamber to unload? It is what I was taught when I bought my 700 24 years ago, and it was a commonly accepted method. Saw it all the time hunting when we'd leave the area, plenty of gun hunters did it then, and reading the anecdotal stories of 700's in the field, still do it. Because of that I point it out to those considering what type of rifle to take to the field. Magazine fed rifles unload more quickly and safely, especially if you are actually doing that crossing fences or other obstacles.
We don't take that into consideration much, either. A lot of the negligent shootings involve unloading the gun at end of day when people congregate and are tired from a day's hunting. None of that is taken into account, just the boom, and the gun is blamed.
In all the reports how many accepted the responsibility? Again, NO numbers to compare and balance what we THINK we know about this. I am not disputing the problem exists, it's been documented and demonstrated. What we lack are the actual number of occurances in the field - where no qualified forensic examination by experts is ever conducted. It's always after the fact and it's always about the gun, it seems.
It bolls down to Remington has deeper pockets than Joe and he's more than willing to pitch into the suit as a cooperative witness. After all, he feels betrayed that the gun wasn't made stupid proof, which is an increasing expectation in newer generations. Goes to having starter and shift interlocks in cars, or blade guards on saws. Even chain saws. The danger is obvious (or at least to some of us) and proper conduct mandatory, but being human, we fail. Then human pride takes over and the gun gets the blame. Nonetheless the one thing I consistently see when this subject comes up by the opponents of the 700 trigger is any acknowledgement of the bigger problem - it happens with few witnesses and by the time it's publicly known most of them have their story all sorted out.
We do have a demonstrated issue with the trigger but there is no corresponding presentation of hard data to show exactly how big the problem is. And we never will, which means it's going to be a debate that is never settled.
Why, and why is it important?
We have an issue regarding the trigger, but what isn't reported is how many were actually affected and who decided that it was the trigger. Stating "it can do it" but not eliminating Joe Bubba adjusting it incorrectly or simple malfeasance and mishandling of the firearm means there is no finite set of "It really happened this many times."
What we have left is OPINION, not fact, and that means we can't measure it and compare it against other similar guns to see if it's out of the ordinary. Which brings up that other guns are discharged by involuntary means, too, which is rarely discussed.
The old school method of jacking rounds thru the chamber to unload? It is what I was taught when I bought my 700 24 years ago, and it was a commonly accepted method. Saw it all the time hunting when we'd leave the area, plenty of gun hunters did it then, and reading the anecdotal stories of 700's in the field, still do it. Because of that I point it out to those considering what type of rifle to take to the field. Magazine fed rifles unload more quickly and safely, especially if you are actually doing that crossing fences or other obstacles.
We don't take that into consideration much, either. A lot of the negligent shootings involve unloading the gun at end of day when people congregate and are tired from a day's hunting. None of that is taken into account, just the boom, and the gun is blamed.
In all the reports how many accepted the responsibility? Again, NO numbers to compare and balance what we THINK we know about this. I am not disputing the problem exists, it's been documented and demonstrated. What we lack are the actual number of occurances in the field - where no qualified forensic examination by experts is ever conducted. It's always after the fact and it's always about the gun, it seems.
It bolls down to Remington has deeper pockets than Joe and he's more than willing to pitch into the suit as a cooperative witness. After all, he feels betrayed that the gun wasn't made stupid proof, which is an increasing expectation in newer generations. Goes to having starter and shift interlocks in cars, or blade guards on saws. Even chain saws. The danger is obvious (or at least to some of us) and proper conduct mandatory, but being human, we fail. Then human pride takes over and the gun gets the blame. Nonetheless the one thing I consistently see when this subject comes up by the opponents of the 700 trigger is any acknowledgement of the bigger problem - it happens with few witnesses and by the time it's publicly known most of them have their story all sorted out.
We do have a demonstrated issue with the trigger but there is no corresponding presentation of hard data to show exactly how big the problem is. And we never will, which means it's going to be a debate that is never settled.
badkarmamib
Member
@Tirod
Wow, quite a post. And I agree with you 100%. I, too have a 700. So does my father. His was one of the X-Marks, and his went off one time when he took the safety off while hunting. Of course, it was pointed in a safe direction, and the only penalty was no venison that day. It got a new trigger installed by Remington. When they recalled them again, and Remington was going to have to keep his rifle for 6 months while the suit was settled, he bought a Timney and he and I installed it.
I adjusted my Walker to about 4 pounds of pull. I NEVER touched the overtravel or sear engagement screws. I feel that my trigger, that has NEVER malfunctioned, is just as any other mechanical device. That is, it will work until it doesn't. I don't rely on any "safety" in lieu of common sense. I will keep it as-is, mindful that it has the same potential for failure as any other firearm, until it causes a problem, then it will also get a Timney.
With final regards to your post, as you said, we are each responsible for what happens to the firearms in our hands. We must be ever-mindful of the responsibility that we assume each time we pick one up, act accordingly, and pass that knowledge and respect on.
Wow, quite a post. And I agree with you 100%. I, too have a 700. So does my father. His was one of the X-Marks, and his went off one time when he took the safety off while hunting. Of course, it was pointed in a safe direction, and the only penalty was no venison that day. It got a new trigger installed by Remington. When they recalled them again, and Remington was going to have to keep his rifle for 6 months while the suit was settled, he bought a Timney and he and I installed it.
I adjusted my Walker to about 4 pounds of pull. I NEVER touched the overtravel or sear engagement screws. I feel that my trigger, that has NEVER malfunctioned, is just as any other mechanical device. That is, it will work until it doesn't. I don't rely on any "safety" in lieu of common sense. I will keep it as-is, mindful that it has the same potential for failure as any other firearm, until it causes a problem, then it will also get a Timney.
With final regards to your post, as you said, we are each responsible for what happens to the firearms in our hands. We must be ever-mindful of the responsibility that we assume each time we pick one up, act accordingly, and pass that knowledge and respect on.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
You are right. We don't know how big the problem is, for a couple of reasons. Many of these discharges never get reported to anybody and either the owner just considers it a fluke or gets it fixed outside of Remington (i.e. at the LGS). Of the reports to Remington, Remington isn't apt to post the numbers of complaints and the numbers of verified bad guns. That could look very bad for Remington, even if it was just a fraction of production, the issue could be present in thousands of guns. We do know the condition is in enough guns that Remington is willing to fix millions of guns (to the tune of $10s of millions in expenses) to make the issue go away, but this only came after numerous lost lawsuits (costing $10s of millions) and public reporting on TV.
True, but as 00 Spy pointed out, Remington would be the only source for such numbers. Based solely on the popularity of the 700's and the vast numbers manufactured, a small percentage of faulty triggers would represent a substantial risk to the hunting public.
As a certified rifle instructor and RSO, safety is my number one concern and surely no one can suggest that ignorance of a potential hazard is a healthy situation. One can, and absolutely should, teach firearms safety, but must also point out any known potential hazards, especially those which have been repeated far too many times.
While I have only been personally involved in one Remington FORS (detailed in my previous post) which resulted in no injuries, I do have knowledge of, but did not witness, six such incidents which resulted in either serious injury or death.
Having said that, I will be the first to point out that, had all proper safety practices been followed in the six incidents, the injuries/death could have been prevented. However, I also feel obliged to ask this question, "Can anyone here honestly state that they have NEVER swept someone with the muzzle of their firearm?" I can't.
In the interest of full disclosure, I must also say that I have witnessed the accidental discharge of one pre-64 Winchester model 70. This occurred when a friend & I were hunting and his rifle discharged, thankfully into the ground between us. He had purchased the rifle used several years before and it had never malfunctioned before. Upon inspection after the incident it was obvious that someone had "filed" (as opposed to polishing) the sear at an improper angle. Any mechanical device can fail; it can happen with any make of firearm, so be careful out there.
Regards,
hps
Llama Bob
member
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This is an excellent point - we have a set of redundant safety rules because that way if something goes wrong, the redundancy keeps people from getting hurt. One of those rules is "Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target." When you have an unsafe firearm that fires without a finger on the trigger, that redundancy is lost.
I take safety very seriously, but like you on a couple of occasions I have swept someone. There were always reasons it happened, and some of those reasons were things I could not easily control but that doesn't change that it happened. As an instructor it's a basic fact of life that I will get swept by students from time to time. They screw up, have medical issues that cause them to lose control of their bodies, etc. Some of their reasons are near-unavoidable, others are lame excuses. But it will happen. The reason that neither I nor the people I swept got shot is the redundancy layered into our safety procedures. Mechanical flaws in guns that eliminate that redundancy make us all less safe.
CoalTrain49
Member
I find it interesting that safeties are such a huge issue on a rifle. I shot trap in competition for years. The chances of someone being shot if everyone walked around with a loaded chamber and a safety on are huge on a trap range. Therefore protocol is no chambered round until you're up to bat...ever, anywhere. I stressed that when I instructed new shooters. Many trap guns have safeties but they are generally manual, not auto. You can set them to off and they stay off. Some people disconnect them if they use a gun with an auto safety.
I've also done my share of hunting. Let me just say I'm not a huge fan of using safeties on anything in the field. I've never felt a need for a safety while hunting. If you don't have time to chamber a round in a shotgun or rifle chances are you're rushing the shot. With birds I hunted over a pointer. Plenty of time to engage. Same with stalking deer. A lot of hunters these days stalk game, lots of time there. I don't have any experience hunting from a blind but I would think there would also be time there also. The only exception I can think of here may be stand hunters which I've never tried. Maybe some stand or blind hunters
could fill me in.
I would like to know how many hunters are shot every year in camp or hunting with a loaded chamber on safe, or maybe they just thought it was on safe.
I used to have a good friend (now deceased) who was shot in deer camp. He lost the use of his left arm and hand. He was lucky I guess.
Bottom line is I think safeties are a hunting crutch. Buy whatever gun you want and use your brain.
I've also done my share of hunting. Let me just say I'm not a huge fan of using safeties on anything in the field. I've never felt a need for a safety while hunting. If you don't have time to chamber a round in a shotgun or rifle chances are you're rushing the shot. With birds I hunted over a pointer. Plenty of time to engage. Same with stalking deer. A lot of hunters these days stalk game, lots of time there. I don't have any experience hunting from a blind but I would think there would also be time there also. The only exception I can think of here may be stand hunters which I've never tried. Maybe some stand or blind hunters
could fill me in.I would like to know how many hunters are shot every year in camp or hunting with a loaded chamber on safe, or maybe they just thought it was on safe.
I used to have a good friend (now deceased) who was shot in deer camp. He lost the use of his left arm and hand. He was lucky I guess.
Bottom line is I think safeties are a hunting crutch. Buy whatever gun you want and use your brain.
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Clark
Member
I was posting at AR when contributor Jack Belk got bursitis in his shoulder and reportedly did not complete some jobs. He was pres of the gunsmithing guild. He testified against Rem.
I bought another Rem700 yesterday that I will throw on the pile to rebarrel, restock, re scope base, re recoil lug, and it will get a new trigger from Timney.
I have shot plenty of deer with the stock Rem700 trigger, but the more I deal with Timney, the more I like them.
I bought another Rem700 yesterday that I will throw on the pile to rebarrel, restock, re scope base, re recoil lug, and it will get a new trigger from Timney.
I have shot plenty of deer with the stock Rem700 trigger, but the more I deal with Timney, the more I like them.
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