642 Club Part Deux

[squinty]

OK I need cleaning advice. My first snub was all stainless, I used Hoppes Elite, BreakFree CLP and LeadAway cloths on it. Can I use these same cleaners on the 637 or will they damage the finish on the aluminum? It's mainly the lead away cloths I'm worried about. I've used them in the chambers and on the front of the cylinder to remove carbon rings. Have I fubared this new gun's finish?

 

[jt1]

...have a sense of roughly how much such coatings...

Nem - With any refinish, especially if shipping is involved the minimum is going to be around half the cost of a new 442, on the high end it may equal the cost of a new gun. From a purely financial standpoint it might be best to sell the 642 and buy a 442 (340 ) if there is a sentimental attachment to the 642 then it may be well worth the price.

squinty - Thanks for the links, I'll look into the "Ceraguard' finish. As for the cleaning question:

The 642 clear coat finish on currently manufactured guns is applied to the aluminum frame only. The barrel and cylinder are stainless steel with a brushed finish and have no clear coat. I use BreakFree CLP on the frame and have no issues, the Hoppes Elite is used by many and appears to be OK as well. If you really need it the LeadAway can be used on the barrel/cylinder, but do not allow it to contact the clear coat.

The 442's aluminum frame is a black anodized coating, the stainless steel barrel and cylinder are blued (blacked). There is no clear coat used.

 

[squinty]

So, how would I recognize damage to the clearcoat? I also scrubbed the breechface pretty well with the lead away, come to think of it. What is the effect of clearcoat erosion on the strength of the base aluminum - have I damaged the gun, or made it unsafe?

Never mind, I called S&W customer service. They stated that their might be some pitting or rusting if I'd removed big chunks of clearcoat, but the shiny/worn areas of the gun correspond to "normal" wear - maybe I just accelerated it a bit. Thank you for the helpful advice and info, jt1. Glad this club is here!

 

[daddy-o]

New 642 Club Membership Application

Yesterday, I purchased a new S&W 642, without the internal lock. I was able to get a local dealer to order it from RSR or whoever it was that had the limited run of 642's w/o the IL.

I've been around guns most of my life, and done some rifle shooting, but this is my first handgun. I've been lurking here and talking to my buddies who carry about the decision. I plan on keeping it a nightstand safe, and eventually applying for a CCL. I've got a wife and 2 young kids (1 & 2yrs) these days, which is why I'd been thinking about owning a gun for home defense recently.

I went to the range yesterday, and shot about 75 rounds through it and I was pretty happy with the way it shot. I hope to do some regular practice. Interested in the cleaning tips as well.

Can I join the club?

 

[Esco]

Hey guys...I'm curious. Is it worth it to change the stock grips for the Hogue ultra compact bantam grips? I'm pretty confortable shooting my 642 with the stock ones. But, if it makes a huge difference and doesn't add any more weight or space to make it harder to conceal, I would like to add them. Thanks for the input!

 

[jt1]

Esco - IMO the Bantams are the best carry grips going, much better fit and grip than the factory boots. If for no other reason than to get rid of that rusty screw they are worth the price , here's some data:

http://thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=3973840&postcount=435

daddy-o - Welcome to the 642 Club. It's good to have you here with us and we are looking forward to hearing more from you.

squinty - Glad to hear everything's ok... as G-man stated earlier the clear coat is really quite durable, just take it easy and you should be good.

 

[daddy-o]

An update... went to the range again today to find out my hand was still pretty sore from Wednesday... blister started bleeding...Ouch This might just be a once / week trip to the range

Only shot 30 rounds this time.

 

[jmswat]

Count me in. I carried a 342pd as a backup for a few years until my dad retired and wanted it...guess I couldn't tell him no.
Anyway, this thread and my missing that 342 got me to buy one of the no lock 642-1's that were released.
The old man and I were at the range today and he tells me that he might rather have the slightly heavier 642 I just got. So I may get my 342 back. Go figure.
Thanks for the great thread- great reading.

 

[indiandave]

daddy-o with out a covered back strap the little gun will huurt your hand. the best grips i found are the crimson laser grips. they have a covered back strap. they make shooting the little guy fun! they will also help you shoot better.

 

[davidconatser]

Shiny gun and Flinch or follow-through?

I took a 3 day outdoor class with Louis Awerbuck last weekend using my 640 as a primary and 642 as a backup. I was embarrassed to discover that in full sun, there are many angles to the sun in which the shiny surface behind the rear sight made sight alignment impossible because of glare. My practice has always been on a range with a cover providing shade.

I tried putting tape and coloring it black with a Sharpie, and that helped. Then I tried spray painting with flat black. That helped a lot, but is ugly. I think I am going to try the matte black DiamondKote http://www.mrarms.com/colors.html that Nem suggested. I will let you know how that works out.

To keep my pocket full while the 640 is away, I bought a new 442. Nice. I put a little over 150 rounds of mostly 158 gr +P and 10 Gold Dot short barrel 135 gr +P through it today.

I have a new favorite gun. (But aren't they all - we are so fickle).

The second part of what seems to be becoming an excessively long post is that after establishing that the 442 shoots point of aim and getting the CT LG-305 laser grips zeroed in, I tried the exercise of loading only two chambers, spinning the cylinder and firing.

I would often see a slight dip in the sight picture when the chamber was empty. The full chambers hit the point of aim and were not low.

I wish I had it on high speed camera so I could know for sure, but I think (hope) that what I am seeing is follow-through just after the trigger pull rather than a flinch just before.

It does not happen if I am just dry firing. And I have been working hard on follow-through since when I miss it tends to be high, and that is improving.

Any opinions? Am I flinching and rationalizing? If so, why aren't my live rounds low?

An interesting aside that surprised me, but may not those who have shot the X42s more: the 442 is just as comfortable to shoot as the 640 which weighs 10 oz more.

Sorry to be so long.

Dave

 

[AStone]

Welcome to all the new members. Great to see club numbers increasing.

Sorry to be so long.

Dave, no worries there, IMO.
Sometimes quality and good communication just requires more words.
Your post is clear, relevant and not "wordy" at all.

Hopefully others will have suggestions for you re adjusting accuracy, etc.
(I'm still a novice about that ... others here are far more knowledgeable.)

Nem, at work on yet another weekend ...

 

[tilden]

Received my Carry Permit today and am looking for the best SD round to use in my 642. Please let me know what those of you who carry a 642 use and why.

I seen a post awhile back on this, but with so many posts I can't seem to find it.

Best regards,
T.

 

[Camjr]

Can't go wrong with either the 158gr. Buffalo Bore or the 135gr Speer Gold Dot +p designed for short barrell snubbies!

 

[davidconatser]

camjr has the consensus: 158gr SWCHP +P or Gold Dot short barrel.

I like the Remington 158gr SWCHP +P, mainly because it has a long history and is cheaper than the Buffalo Bore.

I carry the SWCHP in the gun and Gold Dot in the speedloader because it is a lot easier and quicker to load jacketed cartridges. Much less friction.

For future reference, this link will help you find information on THR: http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=005288657797907197482:juqp1cxyfxy

 

[Johnan]

I would like some input on something that has been bothering me.

I keep reading that 158gr lead is what is used for sighting the 642.

Last week I shot some 158gr full metal jacket and they hit POA better than the Remington and Winchester 125gr +P JHP and 130gr non +P FMJ rounds which are my usual practice rounds. POA is not much better with the Speer 135gr +P JHP which us currently my carry round.

This week I got a couple hundred 158gr LSWC and today shot 50 rounds and POA was right on the money.

Speer engineered the current 135gr round for the especially for the snubbie.

What perplexes me is why didn't Speer use 158gr lead since these guys were sighted with 158gr lead?

 

[AStone]

Great question, Johnan. I'm looking forward to responses.
I'll bet JT will have a few things to say about this.

My hypothesis: I'll bet the choice of 135's has more to do with velocity & foot pounds than POA.

 

[glockman19]

Johnan,

POA at what distance?

bullets travel in arcs. different grain, different powder different arc. I'm not surprised in a different POI/POA from differnt manufacturers. that's why I always practice with my HS/SD ammo. I've found little difference in the CCI 158 grain and the Federal HS & Speer GD ammo I shoot between 3-10 yards.

 

[jt1]

...went to the range again today to find out my hand was still pretty sore...

daddy-o - These little mules didn't get that nickname for nothing...the only way to tame a mule is with a firm hand. Grip position and firmness make a real difference and the goal is to get a high grip tight enough to prevent any gun movement in the hand and allow the forearm or upper body to absorb the recoil depending on your engagement position. The stronger your grip the better, this will also help in point alignment, and in my CQC training I term it my "death grip".

jmswat - 642 or 342PD, both are welcome here at the 642 Club...and so are you...and dad too!

Am I flinching and rationalizing? If so, why aren't my live rounds low?

davidconatser - Well grasshopper, perhaps you have achieved the perfect balance...have you developed your technique to the point that you are compensating for jump/recoil to keep the target covered and therefore reduce your recovery time?

tilden - Congrats on your CCP, Now it's time for you, and the rest of us, to take a few minutes and reflect on the responsibility that comes along with exercising this right. I stand with Camjr and davidconatser in supporting the 158gr LSWCHP/LSWC and the Speer gold dot. My personal preference is to go with the Buff Bore 20A, as I feel this is the max available (and I would not care to try anything hotter than this loading, if any exist) and while it is a bit more costly, in this case I think you get what you pay for and IMO it's worth it.

Some newer members may not be aware of the following sites that have done extensive ammo testing and are a great resource when researching carry loads:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/oldindex.html

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

I carry the SWCHP in the gun and Gold Dot in the speedloader because it is a lot easier and quicker to load jacketed cartridges. Much less friction.

davidconatser - Hmmmm....This is interesting...OTOH, if you need to reload to reduce a threat you might need all the punch you can get...like a back-up X42 with 20A's...

why didn't Speer use 158gr lead since these guys were sighted with 158gr lead?

I'll bet the choice of 135's has more to do with velocity & foot pounds than POA.

POA at what distance?

Johnan - I can't speak for Speer, but I'll bet that Nem has it right, terminal effectiveness was probably the primary concern here and with all factors considered, the SGD is an effective round. gman asks the critical question here, POA/POI at what range? While the Snubnose is capable of accurate fire at all ranges by qualified operators, it's forte is close quarters combat, anywhere from contact range out to 7 meters or so is where this gun earns it keep. This is not a target gun, and the ability to shoot tight groups at SD range is, IMO, not really necessary, or even desirable. As I have said before, better to spread it around a bit and hit something important than to have a nice, tight group in a non-vital spot. If you can keep fiVe rounds COM on a mover while seeking cover you are good to go, and this is fairly easy to obtain point shooting. With aimed fire you should not notice any significant POA/POI deviation at 7 meters.

Here is some insight to this issue:

Can anyone here speak a little on how bullet weight affects accuracy as in POI? Does a 125 grain bullet shoot say, 2" low at 25 yards while the 158 grain hits POI? I've always heard this was an issue but to what extent I'm not sure.

That's the theory. Lighter bullet is faster and is gone before muzzle has time to rise.. Heavier bullet slower and more time for muzzle rise, thus it hits a bit higher.

POI is just that--Point of Impact. All other variables being equal, POI can be adjusted by sight adjustment. The sight adjustment can be made by the adjustments possible in the mechanical characteristics (or lack thereof) of the sights.

Accuracy--and I think most of us mean inherent accuracy of a firearm is impacted by the characteristics of the complete cycle of events that comprise shooting one round. If more than one round hits the same spot on a target, we consider that (exceptional) accuracy.

Insofar as bullet weight goes, CW (conventional wisdom) holds that a heavier bullet travels slower--and because of that, the harder recoil of a heavier bullet has more time to raise the muzzle, hence it shoots higher than a lighter-weight bullet.

Enter the human variable--and that is anything from the way our eyes see the target to how our brain interprets what is seen, on through to the mechanical / physical 'habits' we develop for shooting a round. And those habits all over the map: I am willing to bet that if you and I shoot the same firearm, with the same loads, the POI would be notably different for both of us, even though we both may shoot equally-accurate groups.

Overall, most people will shoot lower with a higher-velocity round than with a lower-velocity one, and the POI will also be impacted by the bullet weight

In my own experience I have seen little difference with the X42's at typical SD ranges between the SGD 135's (lightest) and the BB 158's (heaviest, and my recommend carry load) rounds I have tried.

And there it is, in a nutshell. The lighter bullet / higher POI I mentioned in my preceding post amounted to about a 1" increase--and that was at 15 yards, off a benchrest...

For those that are concerned with bullseye accuracy I will relate this:

I met a 360PD shooter at the club awhile back that was a 1911 convert who was complaining about "missing the target", once we got to shooting the guy was just deadly, really good COM at all ranges and drills. He was not happy and considered anything out of the black spot a "miss"...I wish I could "miss" as good as he did!

 

[johnnylaw53]

Went to the range yesterday with the 92fs and the 642 took the target out to 15 and 25 yards with the 92 almost all in the black. When it was time for the 642 target went out to 3 to 7 yards most in the black some close mostly point shooting not aimed carefully like the 92. I was happy with both performaces just keep in mind the mission of the weapon you are shooting and don't compare your markmanship with you range gun to your little life saver.

be safe

 

[GVMan]

Anyone have experience with both LG105 and 405?

The Crimson Trace LG 405 has more padding on the backstrap. Does this actually make a difference when shooting or is all just marketing?

I have the 405 but I am making a recommendation to my Dad about which one to get. I like the 405 but have never shot with the 105 or even the 305 for that matter.

 

[jfh]

See this link for CT j-frame grip comparisons:

Crimson Trace 105, 305, and 405 grips.

Three observations:

1. The 405 grip recoil pocket makes a noticable difference.

2. The 305 grip length makes its use difficult for pocket carry.

3. The 105 grip design, with no "lengthening", makes the 105 grip suitable for small hands--and less suitable for large hands: I am 6'1" tall, with proportional hand size (large, but not "beefy", nor with long fingers, etc., etc.), and the 105 grip is simply too small for me to reliably grip the revolver and turn on the switch.

My personal preference is to pocket carry, so I like the 405. However--early on, I had trouble with pockets tearing out--and, after about 1500 rounds on my current one, they are starting to tear out again. That's not an issue for me, though--the grips (aftermarket / CT logo) have a three-year warranty.

If one will NOT pocket carry, then the 305 is well worth it for the extra length and the increased grip leverage for recoil control. It does afford some recoil absorption, and it "upsizes" the grip nicely.

With the 305 mounted on a 640 (SS, 24 oz), I can fire full-house 357 magnums if I want to. On the M&P340 with a 405, my limit for back-to-back quad fives is using a (re)load that is a 158LSWC running at about 900 fps. The factory "FBI loads" (Rem 38S12) run about 800+ fps and are nicely shootable from any of the j-frame revolvers regardless of weight.

One last thought--if you are dealing with pain while shooting your lightweight with your preferred round, then set up a practice and conditioning program. IMO, a minimum level of competence for shooting one of these lightweight j-frames well is the ability to shoot a "quad five"--i.e., five shots / five yards / five seconds / five-inch group.

Jim H.

 

[wjh2657]

I tried several grips on my 642 and still felt pain. I switched to Pachmyer COMPACS and it made a big difference. They cover the backstrap. I pocket carry and they still conceal well. I buy khakis and jeans with deep pockets and have RF pocket reinforced by seamstress. I ordered a set for my soon to come 317, although it doesn't need recoil taming, just to keep same feel (grip) as 642. I have come to conclusion that 642 is a standard pressure .38 Spl and that is what I shoot and carry in it now. 640 is no problem with+ps and it is my Winter and Fall carry.

 

[tilden]

Thanks all for the Buffalo Bore recommendation. Where on line is a good place to buy this, and, can I use it for my HD Model 10, 4''?

 

[jt1]

tilden - Buffalo Bore ammo is available from the company website: http://www.buffalobore.com/ Tim Sundles, a member here at THR and an all around good guy runs this company. They have several flavors of .38 special, the ones of interest here are the (20A )+P and the (20C) standard pressure. The 20C is about as hot as most others +P, and the 20A is a quite serious load. My recommendation would be a box of each as well as some other brand name 158gr +P/SP LSWCHP's for your own evaluation to choose a carry round, then lay in a suppy of your choice and do most training with some 148/158gr target wadcutters. Your post 1957 M10 will have no problems with these as long as it is in servicable condition.

 

[trane fan]

I picked up my 642 today from my local FFL. I purchased it last week from Wild West Guns via Auction Arms. The grips have to go but other than that I'm quite pleased. I can't wait to take it to the range.