642 Club Part Deux

[jfh]

WARDO88 and Nematocyst: Thank you. We all have our orifices, and I am always willing to share my opinions if not my orifices.

Isufan1971: I'm glad to hear that there is some 'real world' information around about SD gun porting. You are probably in a good spot to give us some 'objective' information on it.

As for ammo to test. There are three rounds, maybe four, that people are interested in, I suspect:

1. Speer 38+P 135-gr. GDSB (860-900 fps)
2. Buffalo Bore 20A; (158 gr, 1000+ fps)
3. Buffalo Bore 20B; (125 gr, (1050+fps), and
4. Buffalo Bore 20C (158 gr, 850+)​

Since ported barrels work best with higher pressure, that does suggest the lighter-bullet / faster velocity rounds, so you may want another 38+P / ca. 110-gr round (I'm not up to speed here) that is very fast. Does MagTech have one? I also suggest you choose one round for acclimation / familiarization--say the Hornady 110-gr CD round--and shoot that almost exclusively until you have really "thought through" the recoil and muzzle flip impulse.

When I was working on the "replica reloads" effort, I found I had to repeatably shoot the reference round when I was sorting out powders to find the one most like the 38+P GDSB 135-gr. round recoil impulse. The problem is our mental adaptation, I think--that is, if we shoot more than perhaps ten rounds of a new parameter, we lose track of the subjective characteristics of the reference round. Be sure to record your thoughts immediately, too--on the target, preferably, or in the bench log.

Plan on shooting no more than two more different rounds at any given session, interspersed with the reference round. At least, that is what I had to do to get 'good' subjective evaluation of the recoil impulse when I was finalizing the replica reloads recipes.

Finally, think your testing procedures through carefully to minimize the cost. If you get well-familiarized with your reference round, you will probably need to shoot only one cylinder / 5 rounds of the 'test' round, and then you can keep the other 15 or so on hand for carry loading. (I still have 5 or 10 of the BB20As on hand--if only to put in for wintertime carry.)

Keep us posted, Isufan1971.

Jim H.

 

[AStone]

Party!

If you HAD both, which would you carry? 642 or PF-9?

 

[wjh2657]

"I come to practical / SD shooting techniques from a marksmanship background. I've reached the conclusion that traditional handgun shooting skills are detrimental to effective SD shooting for a casual shooter: Spending time getting a proper sight picture, with the target properly placed over the front sight and the front sight aligned with the rear sight is one more delay that can get you killed, IMO, and we (carry gunnys) really need to train the SD techniques into priority in our response set."
Jim H.


Gunsite graduate, 30 years AD in USMC, fired on pistol teams the years I wasn't shooting for real.

Agree 100% with you. I have abandoned almost everything I learned in those years now that I carry as a civilian. I carry a snubby and have it on me at all times that it is legal. I train now at 10-21 feet, firing fast at 4-6 inch ""Zone." I no longer seek confrontation but prepare for it if it comes to me.

 

[frankiestoys]

I shoot mine everytime i go to the range ,just to be ready.

 

[jt1]

Well...

Seems like the porting topic is well in hand, as well as the new (last year)"pro" offerings. I have handled, but not fired these and found the fit and finish (with matching trigger) to be very good, nice front sight (should be tritium) and lack of white lettering to be quite attractive. But, then there is the extra barrel length and the porting…

While you really can’t go wrong with any jframe, IMHO, the X42 is just about perfect in its current configuration, were I to make changes they would be few…a big dot night sight w/corresponding rear trench for improved low light point engagements (…I can hear DA now…), somehow make the ejector better with the same length (or even shorter) barrel, return to one of the older style or improve the cylinder latch button for a more positive one handed opening and possibly a moon clip version. (Is this more than a few?)

Having said all that, the reason most of us are here is because the basic X42 is about as good as it gets when the requirement is for a gun with maximum reliability, adequate power, simple operation and in a package that can be carried at all times.

Small frame, hammerless, minor caliber concealable revolvers are fairly specialized handguns intended to serve only one purpose, that being to reduce an immediate threat in a close quarter situation when the only warning provided generally comes solely from situational awareness. As such any changes to the existing platform must be deemed necessary by the user based upon use and experience and not by the marketing department…

Which brings us to the subject of porting, does it work?...Yes. Does it have an application on minor caliber revolvers?....Maybe, but it’s marginal. Does it have a application on a X42 concealed carry gun?...I don’t think so, at least not for me. While it will be interesting to see an objective report on a X42 vs pro model I have a pretty good idea of the outcome and expect to see a fair mitigation of felt recoil especially with the BB +P loading. I would not expect much follow-up sight degradation during daytime engagements, but in low light situations it will be quite significant. The real problem however is that a .38 snubbie is underbore to begin with and for a CQC gun directing unburnt power and hot gasses in any direction other than the threat is not recommended. If we were talking .357/44 Mag class recoil it would have some merit, since both the sight degradation and debris column issues can be trained for to some degree, but for the benefit derived in a .38 Special that for most folks is quite manageable to begin with it does not seem to be an appropriate modification.

While I like the looks of the “pro”, as well as the merits of the Sc/Ti for carry weight and the steel centennials for the shooting comfort, it is always the middle ground offered by the X42’s that wins me over in the CC arena.

So, would I like to have a pro model? Yes...I would mill off the port and replace the front sight with a big dot and be half way to my dream jframe.....

frankiestoys - Welcome to the 642 Club...

 

[ranger7]

"If you HAD both, which would you carry? 642 or PF-9? "

I have both and I carry the 642 (although neither are my favorite carry). A Taurus PT145 Millenium Pro (.45 ACP) is my favorite all around carry. The 642 is for backup and low risk situations like daytime around home. I consider the PF-9 and a Ruger LC-P as available for deep cover situations and, since I retired, there are very few of those.

 

[Benelli Shooter]

"Gunsite graduate, 30 years AD in USMC, fired on pistol teams the years I wasn't shooting for real."

Amen. I have been to the silly gun schools too. In a real fight, you will do the opposite. You will or better be moving. You will not use your sights. And, you will probably be firing at contact distance with one hand.

Never did that at Frontsight.

(Get two airsoft guns and paintball masks. Take your teenage son and simulate one of you searching for the other in your own home. Reverse roles. You will see what I mean.)

 

[wjh2657]

"Amen. I have been to the silly gun schools too. In a real fight, you will do the opposite. You will or better be moving. You will not use your sights. And, you will probably be firing at contact distance with one hand." Bennelli Shooter

My experience with real contact combat proved to me that the first response is to fire back just to establish that you can fire back. (firing back is doing something and doing something helps to gain control of fear.)

This is Phase 1 in combat- reactionary fire, not accurate and not always serving any other purpose.

Phase 2 is when the NCOs gain control and establish fire discipline. the better traind the NCOs and soldiers, the quicker this phase is activated.

Unfortunately for us in a SD encounter, the fight is over before there can be any Phase 2!

I have personally decided to train to train my first reaction-reactionary fire to be ingrained into Muscle-memory as close range pointed fire at short distances and groups in the 4-6" human incapacitation zone. I don't believe that I would probably ever need Phase 2 as the conflict will be over long before that training would kick in. I could be wrong, but I base mine on my life experiences. I have been robbed at gun point BTW, in Chicago. Needless to say as I was in Chicago I was not armed. The sad truth is that the robber was on me before I could have done anything anyways. He was waiting behind a post right behind the elevator and got me as I walked clear of the closed elevator door. And that is the point, the situation is going to develop quick and close. i just don't believe that there is going to be time for any fancy drills or techniques.

Again, draw fast, get behind cover if I can a and fire five at COM so fast I can't count them.

That is my weekly drill with the 642/640 and my daily drill with the .22Lr 317. I've got it down to where I can barely remember drawing and tll five are in the 4" circle at 15-21' . Works for me.

 

[capecod37]

Quick self-defence is so important nowadays, and it is interesting how fast a real robber can attack. Its like prey and hunted.
Like a fox grabbing a chipmunk before the chipmunk knows what has happened.
One of our kids was surprised by a thug who jumped out of a darkened hedge, but she backhanded him in the face instantaneously, very very lucky girl. She is hockey player, so I guess she knows how to 'punch when needed'.
I'm older, so if I am ever alone walking in unfamiliar places(which is almost never), I have a pepper-gel cannister in my hand.
Luckily we live in the country.

And thanks to this forum, we now have chosen to purchase a S+W .38 revolver, to have in our house. Hope never to need it for defence, but its here if we ever do. Though our Yellow Lab barks up a storm if she hears something at night. It would be extremely rare for anything bad to happen in our neighbourhood, but you never know.

 

[jt1]

...robbed at gun point....in Chicago...

wjh2657 - You were robbed by the Police? Only the police are allowed guns in Chicago, that way everyone is safe

The sad truth is that the robber was on me before I could have done anything anyways

Life these days seems hectic and filled with distractions and it is easy to loose track of your surroundings, especially if it is a routine activity or familiar location and you are sort of on autopilot while thinking about other things. When things go bad it's not good to be the last one to know about it. You stand a much better chance of successfully reducing a threat when you are aware and prepared to be proactive than when you must react to a situation, especially when it is up close and you have little or no maneuver space. Another good thing brought up in the thread is point shooting. I practice this every time I shoot or dry fire. Weapon close into the body, protected by the off-hand, engaging single and multiple threats at zero to ten feet or so. I run this drill both strong and weak. A good variation is to conduct this drill from the kneeling, sitting, and grounded (sides and back) positions as you never know how you will end up and if you have never engaged from a degraded position under stress it is a real eye opener. Most folks will shoot way low from these positions even at close range. The whole idea here is to try and prepare for the unexpected. Stay alert and be aware of your surroundings. Vary your weapons training with anything you can come up with that makes sense to you. Realize that no matter what scenario you envision if you ever need to use your SD skills it will probably be very different than you have imagined and you will instantly revert to instinct...

This drill will often surprise you...set you watch to alarm once every few hours or so, when it goes off evaluate your situation, look around and see what is going on around you, and reflect on your mental readiness. The goal here is to develop some level of situational awareness that becomes automatic, always running in the background. Warning...this can become addicting, sometimes to the point of distraction, but better to be ready and not need to be...

Another issue here is weapons presentation, this is the really great thing about pocket carry, you can have a full combat grip with a movement that does not telegraph a weapons draw, no matter what else I carry, there is always at least one jframe in my pocket.

capecod37 - While I am not the one to normally discourage anyone from buying a jframe, if the gun you are considering is to be used solely for home defense you might want to reconsider...while the X42's are great for a concealed carry gun there are much better choices to be made when concealment is not an issue...

 

[308win]

capecod37 - JT1 is on the money. If you aren't going to carry an 870 or similar shotgun would be a better choice for HD.

As to situational awareness, you should be always assessing, analyzing, and adjusting but don't delude yourself into thinking that because you think you are aware you will be prepared; towit: I was at the grocery last weekend walking to my car in the middle of the afternoon. I was employing my usual scan and turned to walk between my car and the adjacent car. The next thing I know I have a face full of teeth and the only thing that kept that Shepard from an afternoon snack was that he couldn't quite reach me. Point is even though I thought I was aware and was alert to people danger I never regististered the partially opened window and the very large and agressive dog in the back seat as a threat - you can bet that will go on my 'look for list' in the future.

 

[capecod37]

Thank you,
Yes, we do have others, and the little one is for pocket carry if needed.
But I agree, tis good to have a variety of them for different situations.
Though we live in a very safe place, everything could change in the future.

I remember back when my brother and our kids were doing a lot of sailing in areas way off the coasts, and there was an occasional 'questionable' boat seen. Most likely drug dealing. They sure stayed away from the regular boats and people fishing, but at night you cant really see who is aboard. So I had bought a stainless mini-14 for that purpose. We dont sail that far any more, so no need for that thing.
Being prepared is the way to be, even though you might never need what you have.
Safe is better than sorry.

 

[Customtrigger]

This thread has the most replies I have ever seen! I love my 642 and I shoot it fairly often. I shoot +p, wad cutters, FMJ'S and personal defense ammo without a problem. It is my trusty 'minigun'........

 

[DAdams]

X42 Betterment

Nem says:

OK, I'm still intrigued by this x42 pro-series,
especially since they're black.

I've been thinking for a while I'd eventually trade up to an MP340,but knowing I'd not shoot .357m in it. Motivation: just a better quality revolver.

Have I found an alternative in the pro-series?
(Shhhhh. Don't tell DA. It'll upset him. )
Are they substantially different in quality from a regular x42?

Another compromising (stop gap) diversion from the "real deal". 340 with 405s.

jt1

were I to make changes they would be few…a big dot night sight w/corresponding rear trench for improved low light point engagements (…I can hear DA now…)

340 with XS Tritium Night Sights (not Big Dot), but appropriately sized for a J Frame.

ward088 says thanks to jfh:

the use of laser grips.
I realize these may be your opinions, but I really believe that opinions based on experience are very helpful to those of us who have not yet acquired a great deal experience related to such a serious subject as firearms.

340 with CT 405

jfh says:

but my bias against porting also exists because my own j-frame carry gun (currently a 360; typically, an M&P340--I sold my 442) usually has a CT 405 (the short / boot grip size) laser installed, and because I also believe point-shooting skills are critical for good use of this kind of SD carry gun.

I have two dogs in this fight and both are winners.
The common threads are 642-2 and M&P 340 with CT 405 grips.
The XS sights for low light are a substantial improvement to the standard blade or even the fiber optic light pipes on the pd series.
My primary impetus then is sighting system, lighter weight, you can put CTs on either. I don't use the .357 feature, but it is a versatility builder just in case allowing the use of .38 spl, plus P and .357.
I suspect the finish (Ion Bond Black Diamond) on the 340/360 is more robust than the X42s.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=282173
The M&P 340 thread for your reading pleasure.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...ted=over&isFirearm=Y&parent_category_rn=15704
M&P 340 link to S&W.

SKU: 163073
Model: M&P340
Caliber: .357MAG/.38+P
Capacity: 5 Rounds
Barrel Length: 1.87"
Front Sight: XS Sights® 24/7 Tritium Night
Rear Sight: Integral U-Notch
Grip: Crimson Trace® Lasergrip
Overall Length: 6.31"
Weight Empty: 13.3 oz.
Material: Scandium Alloy Frame/Stainless Steel Cylinder
Finish: Matte Black
Frame Size: Small - Centennial Style
Action: Double Action Only

List Price: 1200.
Buds had them for 700 w/o CT or 900. with.

IMHO the port is more a negative, potential blast zone as pointed out.

 

[jfh]

Thanks for bringing back those pictures, Dennis.

Like you, I prefer the small-dot on my 340, rather than the Big Dot. I also have to say that I cannot remember the last time I acquired a traditional sight picture. I have practiced 'flash acquisition' with the various (carry) j-frames, and found that practice useful.

These days, however, I am concentrating on point-shooting skills.

Jim H.

 

[BADUNAME4]

Just happened into a holeless 442 today (and bought it, of course).

 

[milspecnsn]

New member -question on "wear"

Hi All,

Well, I had already decided to get a 642 when I came across this club. I've read all of parts1 and 2 and like many, I've finally "seen the light" in my search for an EDC CCW piece for the same reasons mentioned which I discovered the . My "search" through the years has included: Firestar in .40, AMT Backup in .45, Kel-Tec in .32 and 9mm flavors, G26, G27. In the late 90's I had a 640 which I subsequently sold but I've come home to roost.

I’ve put 100 rounds through it and noticed the type of “wear” in these pictures which other members posted in the past. Can someone help me out?

Thanks

JD

 

[lsufan1971]

642 pro series range report

Well I was able to get to the range this morning. I am a big believer in you have to be able to hit your target. I do not always look for the biggest baddest round. If you can't hit what your shooting at you might as well carry a baton.

I replaced the factory grips with a pair of Ahrends boot grips. Listed below is the ammo I used:

Magetch 158 GRN RN Target
Buffalo Bore 20A 158 Grn +p
Hornady Critical Defense 110 Grn non +p
Gold Dot SB 135 +p
Federal Nyclad 125 Grn

I could not find a plain jane 642 to compare recoil with so I used my Dad's 638. I should not the 638 has the factory rubber boot grip.

I started off with at 7 yds using the magtech and shot about 20 rounds to get myself familiar with the gun. My target was a B27E. It shot a little low at first (was probably me). The felt recoil was not to bad but a little more than I expected. I shot 5 rounds out of my dad's 638 and could not tell much of a difference.
Next i moved on to the buffalo bore. I was unfamiliar with BB before today. I read a little about how this load was the most powerful 38 SP +p out there. The reports were correct. The recoil from this round was similar to shooting my friends Smith model 340 but not quite as bad. I was not able to produce effective grouping with it. I shot 10 rounds and had enough. I did not shoot any through the 638. The buffalo bore is going in my 2.5 model 66.

Next was Hornady's Critical defense. I heard and read a alot about this round. I have seen the expansion tests results and was impressed on paper. There is only an 80 fps difference in the +p round. The expansion and penetration test for the CD is very similar. I was able to produce better grouping with this than the BB but not what I had hoped for. The recoil was more than manageable. I shot a few founds through my dad's 638 and my 642 seemed to have less felt recoil with this round.

Next up was the Federeal Nyclad. The accuracy was better than the critical defense. The felt recoil was similiar to the critical defense. I could tell a difference in the 638 with my 642 having a little less felt recoil.

Last but not least is the Gold dot 135 Grn +p. I have to say this round impressed me the best. The felt recoil was not bad at all and it had by far the best accuracy. This will be the round I primarily carry.

I have to say the port did not have a big noticeable difference in managing recoil. I did shoot from the hip using one of the magtech rounds and I didn't get sprayed with gases. I do think the front site is better than a standard 642 and the little longer site radius is a +.
I have to say the trigger on this gun is much better than I expected. The 638 double action and mine aren't even in the same league.

I was able to snap a shot of a target after 10 rounds with the Magtech's. Then the battery died. I though I had charged it up.

 

[marano35]

Got one.

I bought a 642-2 on Friday July 24th. A co-worker was showing me his the day before and I was impressed with the weight. I have owned and do own several snubs to include a Model 649 in .38 Special. The 649 is one of my favorite guns. I have never owned an Airweight and never owned a 442/642 type snub. After looking carefully at the one my coworker had I thought that it would be good to just drop in a front pocket as I am currently doing a Kel-tec .32 in the summer months when I am wearing shorts. I like to keep the minimum number of my guns out of the safety of my gun safe so I figure I will just also use this 642 as a back-up/off-duty gun also. I do not plan to abuse the gun but I also do not plan to baby it. It will be carried in an ankle holster most of the time. I will not hesitate to shoot +P ammo through it, I have already put a box through it since Friday. I shot 25 rounds thru it on Sunday. The one I have seems to be very accurate. I was shooting at 2 inch target stickers stuck to a cardboard box with it on Sunday and was very pleased to see that it was hitting where I aimed. I will increase the distance when the trigger gets a little more broken in.

I am very impressed with the weight, though I have been less than impressed with the quality of Smith & Wesson handguns produced in the last six or seven years. I am going to give this one the benefit of the doubt and use it as the tool that is and will report back on how it's performing in the role I have laid out for it. I ordered a Mika pocket holster after reading that a lot of people in the "club" here seem to like them. I dropped the gun in my pocket this weekend sans holster and it printed a lot more than the Kel-tec so I am gonna give a pocket holster a try when I am wearing shorts or cargo pants. When I am wearing jeans or other type pants it will travel in the ankle holster.

 

[DAdams]

Isufan-

Thanks for the report and that is some good shooting. Was the Speer the Gold Dot for Short Barrel PN 23921?

Welcome aboard marano35 and milspecnsn.

 

[indiandave]

Milspecnsn, in the second picture the drag mark is found on all revolvers. In the first picture I can't tell if if the mark is dirt or a gouge. Clean the gun with hoppe's and a brass brush. I have a feeling it's just dirt.

 

[bkmagby]

Ok guy's, I guess this will be my official application to the 642 club

After much research I too came to the conclusion that the 442/642 was the best choice for my concealed carry needs. So about a month ago I bought a nice new 442 and immediately feel in love with it. I felt that the only thing lacking on it were the sights, as I really feel that for the ultimate self-defense weapon/CCW it should have night sights.

Anyway, I explored options of having them installed on my 442, but didn't have much luck. I considered a S&W M&P 340, but I knew that I would never fire 357 mags out of it and so it just seemed pointless for me to buy it.

Then I came across the 642 Pro Power Port! I thought to myself that this was really close to exactly what I wanted. It was a dedicated 38 Special +P with at least a very visible, drift adjustable/replaceable white sight. Although in the picture it appeared to come with the larger grips rather than the nice boot grips that were on my 442, but I had already ordered some Altamont wood boot grips so I new I could just install them on my new 642 Pro.

So I gave the gun dealer a call (I had found them locally, but on line) to make sure they had the 642 Pro in stock. I also decided to ask them if they knew where I could get a tritium night sight for it as I new that the white dot on the 642 Pro was dovetailed in and drift adjustable/replaceable.

Much to my surprise, I was told that the 642 Pro that they had in stock was a new 2009 version, which came with the Tritium night sight, and boot grips! I was as excited a little schoolgirl so even though being sick with the flue, I ran down and bought it.

Now I feel that I truly have the perfect 38 snubby! I have not been to the range yet, as I have been sick, but I will get out and fire it soon. I fired 100 rounds through my 442 before I traded it in on my new 642 Pro Power Port, so I should be able to appreciate the difference, if any, that the port makes. I will report back and let everyone know how I feel the 642 Pro compares to my old 442.

Thanks everyone for all the great information on the 642/442!

 

[milspecnsn]

Indiandave,

Thank you for answering my question. I'll repost a better pic soon.

 

[wjh2657]

J-Frame schematics

Does anybody know an up to date source of J-Frame schematics. I emailed S&W and they sent me the manual with the old Hammer Mounted firing pin and no ILS schematics. The Jerry Kuhnhausen book and the AGI DVD also use the out of date schematics. I had to take apart my 640 to use as a guide to work on my 642 yesterday. Also, neither Numrich,Brownells or S&W list part numbers for the firing pin assembly or ILS. Help!

 

[CombatArmsUSAF]

Pocket carried the 642 for the first time today. Carried legally for the first time today also. It was great to exercise my 2nd amendment rights and to know I could handle MOST situations that I happened to come across.

I wasn't a big believer in pocket carry, but now I think that I'm gonna try it some more.