7.62*39 FMJ or HP?
- Thread starter jkcal436
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armoredman
Member
The factory hollow point ammunition is more for looks than expansion. Use soft point ammo for expansion.
Domino
Member
Unless you are talking about steel core FMJ (for maximum penetration), HP or SP is almost always going to be superior for self defense. I would prefer a good SP personally, as it gives both good penetration and expansion. If you are talking about Wolf or Barnual HP, its no better than their FMJ as its just a FMJ with a hollow core. If you don't reload you want to find a quality hunting round like the Winchester 123g Super X or Sellier & Bellot 123g SP would be best.
Now I do have some Barnual 125g SP that performs very well. It was a great buy back when it was $3.00 a box...
Now I do have some Barnual 125g SP that performs very well. It was a great buy back when it was $3.00 a box...
crzbiker
Member
Kind of a big gun for home defense.
HP or SP for home defense. While Wolf black box may be a standard M67-type FMJ with the tip cut off, the Wolf Military Classic HP is loaded with the 8m3 type JHP bullet that will reliably fragment under 100 yards and tumble beyond that. Its also my understanding that the Bear brands are also loaded with the 8m3 and not the de-tipped FMJ that wolf black box is.
As far as soft-point for self defense, any soft point ammo is a good choice, and because of how the AK feeds rounds, you really don't have to worry about lead buildup on the feed ramps like you do with an AR, in my experience. The different weights only begin to play into effect when you're talking about hunting applications and shooting targets at range.
On the subject of the regular FMJ bullet, any new manufacture 7.62x39 FMJ will also be of the M67 type, with the front third of the bullet being an empty air space. This will induce tumbling when the bullet hits the target and will also significantly increase wounding potential, but you still have a much greater over-penetration risk associated with FMJ ammo. In WW2 the British .303 was widely regarded as being especially deadly because it had a similar bullet construction to the M67-type .311 bullet.
As far as soft-point for self defense, any soft point ammo is a good choice, and because of how the AK feeds rounds, you really don't have to worry about lead buildup on the feed ramps like you do with an AR, in my experience. The different weights only begin to play into effect when you're talking about hunting applications and shooting targets at range.
On the subject of the regular FMJ bullet, any new manufacture 7.62x39 FMJ will also be of the M67 type, with the front third of the bullet being an empty air space. This will induce tumbling when the bullet hits the target and will also significantly increase wounding potential, but you still have a much greater over-penetration risk associated with FMJ ammo. In WW2 the British .303 was widely regarded as being especially deadly because it had a similar bullet construction to the M67-type .311 bullet.
Mike U.
Member
Same message as above applies. The FMJ rounds and the HP rounds are essentially the same round. Just the HP is a FMJ with the very tip removed. Both tumble in the target. Both will cause nasty wound channels.
If hunting, ya may wanna use the "HP" in case Game Warden Smith/Jones wants to see what your using. That is, if your not going to get the soft points the others recommend. Personally, I'd use what they recommend. I'd like to get hold of some of those 125 gr. SP Barnaul's myself.
If hunting, ya may wanna use the "HP" in case Game Warden Smith/Jones wants to see what your using. That is, if your not going to get the soft points the others recommend. Personally, I'd use what they recommend. I'd like to get hold of some of those 125 gr. SP Barnaul's myself.
W.E.G.
Member
I hope you guys realize that Wolf hollowpoint is a closed-base bullet, whereas the FMJ is an open-base bullet.
That's a pretty significant difference in bullet construction in my book.
See generally http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...hts=&as_occt=any&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=off
That's a pretty significant difference in bullet construction in my book.
See generally http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...hts=&as_occt=any&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=off
Mike U.
Member
I'VE FINALLY FOUND IT! I've been looking for this picture all week for another thread on another forum, but it will be just as useful here.
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For hunting, I think the 154gr soft point is the best bet, as it has more mass to punch deeper into critters and increase your likelihood of quick incapacitation, if you do your part.
Also, with the FMJs, as I understand a boat-tail bullet is preferable (with the air gap) as it works to further destabilize the bullet and induce earlier tumbling then a flat-base bullet.
Also, with the FMJs, as I understand a boat-tail bullet is preferable (with the air gap) as it works to further destabilize the bullet and induce earlier tumbling then a flat-base bullet.
charlesb_la
Member
From the AR15.com ammo forum....
The Military Classic load is the one in the camo boxes.
Seems to be the best "cheap" option. if you want to spend the dough Lapua makes a good jacketed soft point and Winchester makes a Power-Point load.
The Military Classic load is the one in the camo boxes.
Seems to be the best "cheap" option. if you want to spend the dough Lapua makes a good jacketed soft point and Winchester makes a Power-Point load.
Mike U.
Member
W.E.G. wrote:
If ya'll look at the Wolf round in the above pic, you'll see W.E.G. is correct about the FMJ round. Huge air gap inside that Copper jacket and the base is open. From what I can tell in the pic, the only closed base bullet is the last round.
I have some of the Wolf HP and it has an air gap every bit as deep as their FMJ round, but I imagine he is correct about the base on those too. I don't have a bullet puller, otherwise I'd pop one out and post that pic here too.
Anyway, the point being, judging by the pic above, you could use certain FMJ rounds for hunting, if need be. Provided it's legal in your state, that is. Please check before use just to be safe and sure
If ya'll look at the Wolf round in the above pic, you'll see W.E.G. is correct about the FMJ round. Huge air gap inside that Copper jacket and the base is open. From what I can tell in the pic, the only closed base bullet is the last round.
I have some of the Wolf HP and it has an air gap every bit as deep as their FMJ round, but I imagine he is correct about the base on those too. I don't have a bullet puller, otherwise I'd pop one out and post that pic here too.
Anyway, the point being, judging by the pic above, you could use certain FMJ rounds for hunting, if need be. Provided it's legal in your state, that is. Please check before use just to be safe and sure
MTMilitiaman
Member
The AK makes an excellent home defense weapon. It is relatively light and compact, and absolutely reliable. With the right ammo, it has the potential to be more effect than any 5.56mm carbine, and the modern AK can be equipped with rails sufficient the equip with a white light, laser, VFG, or reflex sight.
In the past, JHP ammo has been of unreliable expansion. In my own testing, the old Wolf black box 122 gr JHP expands and fragments violently when shot into five gallon jugs. However, this was based on one sample and I have been unable to test to see if this occurs consistently. I can say that the old Wolf black box 122 gr FMJ is of M67 construction and in testing on both water jugs and medium game tumbles quickly and creates impressive wounds. However, I also know it can easily penetrate 14 inches of pine and will easily plow through at least one cinder block while remaining fatal. While effective, it probably wouldn't be the best choice for indoor home protection.
The newer Wolf Military Classic 124 gr JHP are reportedly loaded with the Oly 8m3 Sapsan projectile, which aside from being of atypically accurate construction is also known to be a consistent and devastating performer in tissue, representing a near ideal combination of expansion, fragmentation, and penetration for personal defense. It would be, and is, my first choice for that application.
In the past, JHP ammo has been of unreliable expansion. In my own testing, the old Wolf black box 122 gr JHP expands and fragments violently when shot into five gallon jugs. However, this was based on one sample and I have been unable to test to see if this occurs consistently. I can say that the old Wolf black box 122 gr FMJ is of M67 construction and in testing on both water jugs and medium game tumbles quickly and creates impressive wounds. However, I also know it can easily penetrate 14 inches of pine and will easily plow through at least one cinder block while remaining fatal. While effective, it probably wouldn't be the best choice for indoor home protection.
The newer Wolf Military Classic 124 gr JHP are reportedly loaded with the Oly 8m3 Sapsan projectile, which aside from being of atypically accurate construction is also known to be a consistent and devastating performer in tissue, representing a near ideal combination of expansion, fragmentation, and penetration for personal defense. It would be, and is, my first choice for that application.
WardenWolf
member
I'm not so sure about that. While I haven't seen their 7.62x39 tested, I have seen their 7.62 Tokarev hollowpoints tested. The expansion was horrific, expanding in excess of 50%. Someone there knows what they're doing. I'd like to see tests before I dismiss it as "no better than FMJ". The one hollowpoint of theirs I've seen tested was utterly brutal. I found a place with them in stock, and I've ordered some. Enough said.
45B@cav
Member
My personal favorite hunting 7.62 is Wolf 154gr SP. Many a Hog and a few Deer have fallen to my AK with this stuff.
Does anyone remember Norinco SP? I have a case of it, but I have not fired a single round.
Here is a great 7.62x39 ammo web page.
Here is a great 7.62x39 ammo web page.
Lloyd Smale
Member
I too have tested black box wolf hp and found it not only expaned but expanded violently. Has anyone else claiming it doesnt actually done penetration tests and if so what kind of a test did you do. I curious to known if it was just a batch thing or if it all expands.
Marlin 45 carbine
Member
deadly for sure (it's my favorite combat round) but way too much penetration for H-D use.
rural area though does great for 'yard & grounds' defense. as in estate protection as long as neighbors are some distance away.
rural area though does great for 'yard & grounds' defense. as in estate protection as long as neighbors are some distance away.
DeepSouth
Random Guy
I have shot holes through 3/8 steel plating with Wolf & Brown Bear HP's. If you need more penetration than that for HD, you got BIG problems.
Depends on the Situation. Normally, it is much overkill, but better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it, or as the Springfield motto says "Bring Enough Gun."
Depends on the Situation. Normally, it is much overkill, but better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it, or as the Springfield motto says "Bring Enough Gun."
AK103K
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The bases on the Wolf HP's I pulled were the same as the FMJ, which was the exposed lead, roll crimp boat tail you usually see on our military loaded ammo. Our bases are usually nice and clean with no imperfections, where the Wolf had a lot of "smears" and distortions, which I think contributes to their varying levels of accuracy.
The only Russian 7.62x39 I've seen with a jacketed "flat" base is the Barnaul 125 grain SP's. Their bullets look very much like a Sierra Game King. They are also the most accurate and consistent 7.62x39 I've used, and thats across different lots and in different guns.
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