7.62x25 vs 357 for outdoor?

[jason41987]

i was wondering what would be the better pistol cartridge to carry outdoors for survival and the purpose of self defense... what do you think would have the best penetration to stop something like a bear?... what would be the most suitable for taking small game if you needed to for survival?

 

[Fiv3r]

I have both, but my vote goes with the. 357.
Yes, 7.62x25 is a zippy little hard hitting round, but its small, loud, and has limited commercial ammo available.

The. 357 can be loaded with extra hot, extra hard ammo for large animal defense (still wouldn't want to mess with a bear). It can also be loaded with. 38 special for smaller game. A .357 would blow a lot of meat off the bones of an already slim squirrel.

The Tok round would give you more rounds in a magazine over the. 357. It might penetrate deeper too if you needed it to for some reason.
That's all I can think of.

 

[jason41987]

well of course youd need it to penetrate deeper if you needed to injure or kill a bear... so much thick skin, muscle, and fat.. anything less would just make it angry.. i hope im never in the situation where i face a big one outdoors, but it happens...

as for the ammo availability, im trying to decide on an automatic round to get behind... i like 9mm, 40S&W, and 45acp, but im not completely behind either one of them... i wouldnt consider any of them to be my complete favorite so im open to considering other cartridges and one of my favorite handguns out there fires the tokarev round (the CZ-52)... so if i could find more reasons to get behind this round id be willing to stock up on brass and reload for it

 

[OilyPablo]

Two of my favorite rounds!

I assume you mean .357Mag not 357Sig?

I would say which has more rifles available? And which has more handguns?

Hot .357Mag out of a 18" barrel is pretty stout.

Yes I know there is a 7.62x25 AR and the old Soviet block guns and the CZ.

But with the .357Mag - all the revolvers and the Coonan and all the NICE lever guns.

 

[JShirley]

There's not really much comparison.

7.62x25mm is a good AOW/PDW round, a 10" barrel smoker that killed millions of enemy troops from Soviet subguns. It is NOT a good dedicated bear round.

.357 Magnum is a good carbine round, with excellent 100-yard performance on N. American medium game. I know people who routinely hunt black bear with it.

John

 

[brnmw]

I also have to assume you are talking .357 Mag. and not a .357 Sig. Coonan has a .357 Mag. semi-auto along with the DE obviously but the DE is too big to want to carry and the Coonan is a good gun but in the 1911 platform I understand is not very good for a beginner and only carries 7+1 rounds. I will make another suggestion with the Glock 20 in 10mm it holds 15 rounds, it still takes practice to shoot but it does hold more than the 1911 platform and the 10mm is a fantastic round with a lot more bullet choice options than say a 7.62X25mm. (which I do love by the way, but not really for Bear defense.)

 

[Fiv3r]

I really wouldn't pick the Tok round for anything bear related. From what I understand, it DOES penetrate. That bottle neck cartridge has a lot of pep. However, I've also heard that it tumbles a bit. You're also talking about a little pill of a bullet compared to a bear. Bears have a large area to hit, but you've still gotta get them in a pretty specific area to put them down.

Like John said, the 7.62 Tok was primarily used in subguns like the PPSh which were just absolute bullet hoses. I do like the TT33. I have one in 9mm. I used to have a CZ-52, but I never took a huge shine to it. I never re-invested in the 7.62 Tok guns because with the old surplus drying up the commercial rounds are fairly expensive, and I don't reload.

I would weigh your likely scenarios. I've never been attacked by a bear or an animal whom I have had to defend myself from using deadly force. But I HAVE gotten turned around in the woods. Nothing more drastic than coming out a quarter mile further down the road than I was planning to, but after a couple of days, I might have started looking for a tree rat or bunny to fill my belly. I DO get hungry every day

My heavy duty outdoor handgun is a 6.5" .357 Blackhawk. I keep it stoked with hot .357 rounds for protection, but I do bring along some fmj .38 specials if I wanted to thru and thru a small animal. If I were consciously going out into bear country and LOOKING to confront a bear (like if I were bear hunting), I would probably consider a Glock 20 in 10mm. Kind of expensive for a "what if" round for me, but to each his own

 

[jason41987]

yeah, i was referring to the 357 mag... my reference though is out of a pistol, im well aware of what a 357 magnum does out of a lever action... has the energy of a 30-30 close range (though drops like a brick after 100 yards)... this is more of a sidearm while im hiking or fishing... in case something were to sneak up behind me

in such a situation, do you rely on six rounds of 357 magnum out of a revolver, or nine rounds of 7.62x25 out of something like a CZ-52 (one of my personal favorites)... it seems to be like the tokarev round (someone having referenced to a PDW-like round) would probably be more likely at penetrating deep enough into a bear to hit a vital organ, dont you think?.. often i hear people carrying 357s and not able to deliver a lethal shot

as for a carbine or rifle to shoot this round out of ive seen a total of four options here.. first one is a semi automatic PPSH-41/PPS-43... second option is a 1911 carbine converted, third option was one of those 16" carbines based on the mac 10... and last option in which ive seen the tokarev round fired from was a converted M1 carbine.. of those options the first and last are the only ones id really consider

but yeah.. i mostly had a defense pistol in mind when outdoors that could also double for taking small game in a survival scenario if i needed it and i just thought the tokarev round would offer deep penetration against a bear, but accuracy and a flat trajectory for hitting a rabbit for food
a

 

[LNK]

but yeah.. i mostly had a defense pistol in mind when outdoors that could also double for taking small game in a survival scenario if i needed it and i just thought the tokarev round would offer deep penetration against a bear, but accuracy and a flat trajectory for hitting a rabbit for food
a

Sounds to me like you want the Tok! You don't have to justify it. Get whichever you want. You will probably never need it for bears anyway. I don't think the muzzle blast would be fun shooting rabbits....Light loaded 38's in a 357 would be good though. Good luck.

LNK

 

[rcmodel]

A 158 - 180 grain SWC .357 will out-penetrate the little .30 TOK on a bear any day, any way.
And break more bones & joints down doing it.

There is a huge difference in what will penetrate a steel army helmet and what will penetrate a big game animal.

And a flyweight .30 bullet isn't it.

I would also prefer the superior accuracy of a 4" - 6" .357 revolver for outdoor / woods use.
The majority of your shots will be at longer range then "bear with bad breath" distance.

rc

 

[Godsgunman]

Like RC said, I personally would want the .357 on my side even though I may have a few less rounds. The 7.62x25 is known for penetration because of such a huge charge behind a little bullet which makes it screaming fast. For woods and bear in particular I'd like the 158 or 180gr .357 from at least a 4" barrel, gives you enough penetration and bigger wound channel. If 6 rounds of the .357 ain't enough to at least deter the bear, I doubt the 3 extra from the Tok will make much of a difference.

 

[JShirley]

If you want the 7.62x25mm, get it, but admit you're getting it because you want it. That's fine, but bears are really not involved at all. If you were getting a rifle in any case, an SKS with a Mojo sight would be a good bet, with powerful (compared to x25mm) but cheap ammo.

When I talked about friends who hunted black bear with .357s, I meant with Blackhawks. If you want a good concealable "do (nearly) anything" platform, something like a 3" Model 65 .357 is a good bet, and the bullets available in .357 will more than make up for for any penetration advantage the x25mm has. That still gives the reduced recoil, inexpensive .38 loads for plinking and small game. If it doesn't need to be concealed, a 4-5" S&W L frame or 4 5/8 or 5" Blackhawk would be a good bet. I'd personally go with the 4 5/8" BH, if I didn't need to conceal it.

John

 

[R.W.Dale]

The 357 is more powerful, has much better bullet choices, can be had in lighter guns that are more accurate and will penatrate much deeper.

And fyi my 357 holds 7 and weights a great deal less than a cz52 or tokarev






posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complains about

 

[barnetmill]

I wonder how much the 7.62x25 round would be deflected from a large bear's skull. Best way of stopping a charging bear is a head shot or breaking a large bone. I am not so sure how well the tok pistol will deliver for this task. Even a .357 is too small for a large bear. For bear country I have a .44 mag mountain gun and I would never want to have to defend myself with it if I have choice against a large bear.
Are there any stories of people using tok pistols against bears. Many years ago I saw soviet film of WWII and the hero pilot after being shot down kills a bear that is licking blood of his face when he regains consciousness with a T33 pistol with a shot to the head.

 

[2zulu1]

Given the OP's question and parameters, there's only one choice and that's the 357mag loaded with suitable bullets for the chosen tasks. This link is to a large bone test done with 10mm, but similar loads in 357mag perform the same way.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7488409&postcount=24

While WFNs penetrate thick bone easily, JHPs don't.

This scandium N-frame weighs in at approximately 35oz and it's a comfortable carry;



It's drilled and tapped to attach top and bottom rails. Top rail can be used to attach a red dot sight or scope, bottom rail for laser/light.



The mag is extremely versatile, for instance, it can be loaded with 180gr Swift A-frames or Nosler Partitions for hunting deer and 180/200 grain WFNs to defend your food from bruins.

This bear cave isn't that far off the trail, if some bruin came at me on the run, I'd want a heavy hardcast bullet to defend myself;

 

[jason41987]

ive thought about getting 357 magnum in a pistol and a semi automatic carbine but the downside is rimmed cartridges and box magazines dont seem to like eachother very much and id love a semi carbine for outdoors... the 357 has a bit more power out of a pistol compared to the tokarev round, but tons more out of a carbine...

i can see the benefits of either one... but it seems like the tokarev would just lend itself so much better to a semi auto carbine and an auto pisto, while the 357 mag would be better suited for a lever action and a revolver... but i use 44 special as my lever action / revolver cartridge, i like a hot 44 special over the 357...

so i guess id rather be looking for something to fill that semi automatic role right now.... realizing that, i should focus my decision on the tokarev round vs other hot, deeper penetrating automatic pistol cartridges

so i guess im going to change this decision to the tokarev round vs something like a 10mm, or 9x23

 

[barnetmill]

For more power than the 9mm and if cost and availability ammo is important l suggest looking at the .40 semiauto carbines versus 10 mm. I think HK has made some 10 mm carbines, but I have no idea if these were ever available to civilians.

 

[JShirley]

What, exactly, will you do with this "semi carbine for outdoors"? You're not going to hunt deer or defend against bear with a x25mm. If you're thinking personal defense, you're now carrying around a short rifle that's less powerful than many handgun cartridges. You also have almost no good rifle choices in x25.

If you're just looking for cheap ammo, you'd do better with a 5.45x39mm. You can- or could a few weeks ago, at any rate- find a decent 5.45mm for $400 or less. And a 5.45x39mm can ring a gong at 300 meters- good luck doing that with any of the available x25mm Century neuters.

The 7.62x25mm makes the most sense in a P90-like weapon, or a short-frame AR SBR. You have diminishing returns with short or long barrels, so you're either getting lots of blast or carrying around extra length and weight.

John

 

[jason41987]

shirley, the handgun would be for outdoors protection while fishing, camping, etc... but ive thought about getting a carbine to go with it for target shooting.. no way would i carry something that big and heavy around on a fishing trip

as for the 5.45, i already have an AK74 i just got as a parts kit, no barrel, but i will probably get a 5.56mm barrel and a new stripped bolt for it and build it as a 5.56mm rifle.... the 5.45 is cheap now but many of these countries that sell the surplus ammo have been moving towards 5.56 so i dont anticipate the 5.45 being as common as it is now through surplus and once that dries up itll never be cheaper than 5.56 again... so best to go with 5.56 now where i can be sure i can find a stable supply of quality ammo as im not sure anyone even makes reloading supplies for the 5.45

actually... ive noticed myself buying mostly russian designed rifles lately.. i have more russian style than american... the AK-74, mosin nagant, makarov... so as a carbine the ppsh just seems like a perfect fit

right now i carry an 1860 army while im outdoors so im thinking of maybe going with a CZ52, or 1911 converted to 10mm, 9x23, or 38 super

 

[JShirley]

Jason, a real Soviet burp gun would be a fun thing. It's a shame we can't go buy one cheaper than a Makarov (because in a just world, most folks wouldn't want a submachine gun, so they'd be cheaper).

John

 

[obm]

J&G Sales has 7.62x25 barrels for 1911s in 5 and 6 inch versions.

http://www.jgsales.com/7.62x25-toka...m-or-38-super.-new,-by-j-g-sales.-p-5619.html

http://www.jgsales.com/7.62x25-toka...mm-or-38super.-new,-by-j-g-sales.-p-6472.html


-obm

 

[OilyPablo]

Suddenly added to my want list. I did not know such 1911 barrels existed. Thank you!

 

[jason41987]

ive thought about the 7.62x25 in the 1911, seem some people that had them but it took a bit of fine tuning to get them to fire reliably, both in the cartridge and the firearm... i guess its a recoil spring issue more than anything.. i might get a 1911 cartridge in x25 later, think id get a CZ52 first though as theyre by nature very accurate and very simple

those ppsh-41 kits online are in pretty bad shape.. if you figure the carrier and trigger group has to be modified, those are the only parts you can get out of the kit that are still good... the shroud and receiver are cut to hell, no barrel, no trunnion... youre basically just buying the stock for the price... youd have to buy another barrel, another trunnion, and weld the shroud together... not sure thats worth it

 

[OilyPablo]

When I bought my Polish Tokarev it was not running at all, a couple silly things like pinching down the slide stop clip, new recoil spring and knocking some burrs off and it was good to go.

 

[PabloJ]

i was wondering what would be the better pistol cartridge to carry outdoors for survival and the purpose of self defense... what do you think would have the best penetration to stop something like a bear?... what would be the most suitable for taking small game if you needed to for survival?

Glock in 10x25 would be a better choice.