the coating on the steel casing ammo does not melt and gum up the chamber. what happens is that the case does not expand like brass when fired so you have gas and crud start to accumulate by with each round fired. due to the tighter tolerances of the ar platform you will eventually have problems. aks dont have this issue because of the generous tolerances. there are threads where it shows pics of guys taking a torch to the case and it doesnt melt.
7.62x39 AR?
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Maverick223
Member
I don't believe expansion is the problem, that is quite a bit of pressure for mild steel to resist; instead I believe the problem with steel cased ammunition is that it doesn't contract to the same degree as brass, causing it to stick in the chamber.
gun guy
Member
the only real issue with the 7.62x39 till now has been the ammo, either cheap ball ammo or big dollar hunting tips. Once again, hornady has the answer, they recently imported berdan primed steel cases, loaded it with decent powder (comblock powders add charcoal to knock down muzzle flash, this is fine for an ak, but not a higher tolerance weapon) and topped it off with a 123gr v-max, they claim a 75fps increase, all this in a box of 50 for a decent price. look for it at your gunstore
What can be done?
I want to build a 7.62 AR15, but after reading this thread I am concerned about the problems mentioned. Are there any modifications that can be done to shoot cheap Russian ammo?
I'm looking at getting the del-ton 7.62 upper (http://www.del-ton.com/AR_15_Barrel_p/cv1033.htm) Any reviews about this product and del-ton in general would be helpful.
I want to build a 7.62 AR15, but after reading this thread I am concerned about the problems mentioned. Are there any modifications that can be done to shoot cheap Russian ammo?
I'm looking at getting the del-ton 7.62 upper (http://www.del-ton.com/AR_15_Barrel_p/cv1033.htm) Any reviews about this product and del-ton in general would be helpful.
Evil Monkey
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If it ain't the screwed up feed ramps, then it's the mags, and if it ain't the mags then it's the bolt integrity.
I want a 7.62 soviet AR15, but based on the information gathered in the past months, it seems like I would be buying a very expensive head ache.
AK's and VZ's are the only real easy options.
......or just stick with 5.56mm for your AR needs.
I want a 7.62 soviet AR15, but based on the information gathered in the past months, it seems like I would be buying a very expensive head ache.
AK's and VZ's are the only real easy options.
......or just stick with 5.56mm for your AR needs.
Maverick223
Member
I'll put in a plug for my VZ.58, it has been flawless and surprisingly accurate. I am not a bit disappointed.
rbernie
Contributing Member
I think that is an utterly unfounded conclusion, given what has been posted here. I have put thousands of 7.62x39 rounds through various AR15 platforms for the better part of a decade now, and have experienced nothing remotely resembling 'an expensive headache'.
My primary 7.62x39 carbine does not have M4 cuts and has never given me feed issues. My primary 7.62x39 AR15 has never given me bolt issues, and it's well over 3K rounds through it by now. I have posed here many times over the last 5-6 years how my MGW low-cap mags worked well, and posted recently how my new-production CProducts 'normal cap' magazines have worked flawlessly.
It is possible that my homebuilt ARs represent the absolute pinnacle of parts and build quality, but I actually rather doubt it. I suspect that my 7.62x39 ARs represent average ARs, and that my experiences with them represent what most folk would get.
I have a Colt 7.62x39 that I bought just after Willie ban, didn't shoot it much because of the mag problem, it came with a 10 round colt mag.
When you would seat the mag too hard it threw all the bullets into the receiver.
Tried a USA mag and it was just as bad.
Bought two plastic MWG's that worked OK but only 10 rounds so spent a lot of time reloading, so just put it away.
When I read here about the c products 30 rounders I bought two from midway and took them to the range today, using 122g ruskies.
Worked great, rounds 58,59 and 60 did not feed, but the bolt carrier had run completely dry so that would explain why.
So I would have to say c products has cured the problem, at least for me.
When you would seat the mag too hard it threw all the bullets into the receiver.
Tried a USA mag and it was just as bad.
Bought two plastic MWG's that worked OK but only 10 rounds so spent a lot of time reloading, so just put it away.
When I read here about the c products 30 rounders I bought two from midway and took them to the range today, using 122g ruskies.
Worked great, rounds 58,59 and 60 did not feed, but the bolt carrier had run completely dry so that would explain why.
So I would have to say c products has cured the problem, at least for me.
I am Also getting ready to purchase a 7.62x39 upper for my AR but I am noticing that we are only looking at "Hunting" and "Coolness" factor as the only reasons for owning one. Yes the 6.8 is probably a nicer hunting round and already has a reliable magazine. One aspect to look at is the "Crap Hitting The Fan" aspect. I want an AR that can shoot 7.62x39 because it is one of the few rounds that has a lot of surplus available. If something happens and you need ammo then the easiest to find would be .45ACP, 9mm, 5.56, 7.62Nato and 7.62x39. having both a 7.62x39 and 5.56 makes your rifle a lot more versitile. I also have an AK and plan on it as a nice backup gun due to its extreme reliability if not accurate.
plateshooter
Member
I have fired quite a few cases of cheap steel case ammo through my 762X39 AR. My upper was built by Model 1 sales. It is accurate, and with selected USA Mag frankenmags, it provided much enjoyment when my life revolved around the plateshoots we had here.
The only problem I had, as well as the other shooters had at the time was broken bolts. Every shooter that I knew of that shot plates with a X39 AR at our local shoots eventually broke a bolt. Maybe it was running 3 mags at a time with cheap steel case ammo, or shooting them until the barrel smoked in every relay, and doing this all day. I don't know. I would guess it averaged 4 to 6K rounds between bolts.
It has been several years since I have shot my X39 AR, when one could buy Golden Tiger or Wolf or Barnaul ammo for $80.00 per K. Maybe the bolts are better now. We just carried a spare bolt assembly in those days, and returned to the line in just a few minutes. Small price to pay for the fun we had.
My X39 upper has a lot of miles on it, but I still like it.
The only problem I had, as well as the other shooters had at the time was broken bolts. Every shooter that I knew of that shot plates with a X39 AR at our local shoots eventually broke a bolt. Maybe it was running 3 mags at a time with cheap steel case ammo, or shooting them until the barrel smoked in every relay, and doing this all day. I don't know. I would guess it averaged 4 to 6K rounds between bolts.
It has been several years since I have shot my X39 AR, when one could buy Golden Tiger or Wolf or Barnaul ammo for $80.00 per K. Maybe the bolts are better now. We just carried a spare bolt assembly in those days, and returned to the line in just a few minutes. Small price to pay for the fun we had.
My X39 upper has a lot of miles on it, but I still like it.
yotesmoker
Member
I have a colt in x39 and only shoot cheap steel cased ammo.Been doing it for the last two years without any problems.Its my range plinker and coyote rifle.I have several colt mags and a few franken mags,all work fine.My only problem is colt related only,the trigger sucks.I need a large pin trigger and can't find any mfg that makes one.Know any smiths that can rework the colt original trigger??????
plateshooter
Member
Hey yotesmoker. Here is a link. Page two has several large pin trigger upgrades. Hope one of these will work out for you.
http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/Bro...&categoryString=649***20766***8807***11619***
http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/Bro...&categoryString=649***20766***8807***11619***
rbernie
Contributing Member
Well, I finally had an issue with my C Products 7.62x39 30rd magazines. Seems that several of them started having the follower hang up if I loaded them with more than 10-15 rounds of steel-cased ammo. Didn't have the issue with brass cased ammo, but could replicate it with steel-cased ammo pretty regularly.
Cleaning the magazines out didn't help, but replacing the magazine springs with Wolff AK47 magazine springs seems to have cured the problem.
Just wanted to post an update.
Cleaning the magazines out didn't help, but replacing the magazine springs with Wolff AK47 magazine springs seems to have cured the problem.
Just wanted to post an update.
Thanks for the update. It did seem that the new mags had promise.
Two considerations in acquiring a 7.62x39 not yet discussed: availability of ammo is probably better based on the fact you already had it. If the Obamascare on guns showed one thing, most military calibers were sold out in a few weeks. Have we all forgotten the whining that went on for months and months about cost and availability? And yet 12ga, .30-30, and .30-06 were on the Mart shelf everyday. Moot point, if a zombie war is declared, I don't delude myself into thinking there will be ANY ammo. I give it 24 hours. Better to have a .30-30. Millions of boxes of that are in the retail system, and many more of them owned by hunters than AR's. The numbers are there, it's a bigger resource.
The second thing is the intro of the .300 BLK, which is actually a marketing takeover by Remington of the Whisper. It's the same thing Les Baer is doing with the .264LBC - otherwise known as the 6.5 Grendel.
Marketing aside, it's a .30 caliber bullet in a 5.56 case. The advantages are using a milspec bolt, not one opened up to the functional limit as the AK requires. Issue mags can be used, too. The cartridge case taper is 5.56, I've yet to read where Pmags couldn't be used.
Two specific loads are being marketed, subsonic for PDW/suppressed use, and normal supersonic. The latter are supposed to have similar ballistics to the 7.62x39/.30-30 class, which means it's entirely adequate for hunting and combat - under 400m.
This is where a good sense of what you need the round to do comes up. It's not the heat like .300 Win Mag., but the creators aren't pushing that anyway. It's being backed by Remington which promises plenty of ammo, and inexpensive to boot. I don't think it will get down to 25c a round, but with most of the components already in production, it could be cheap enough. NO non-military caliber other than .22 will ever be as cheap as taxpayer supported military surplus and reject ammo. Ever. So the .300 BLK isn't the round to have just to pop fireworks. Keep your AK's and 5.56 uppers for that.
The .300 BLK seems to solve a lot of issues right at the mag well level before you even pull the trigger. If .30 cal bullets in a AR is the goal, it would be a better proposition than shoehorning the tapered bullets and curved mag into the straight mag well of a AR. Some things seem to be a good idea, but this still doesn't work out any better than a Cummins in a CJ5. The AK cartridge case is simply the wrong shape for the action. Just because it can be done doesn't mean it should be.
To me, if there is a zombie that needed to die, it's the AK ammo in an AR fad.
Two considerations in acquiring a 7.62x39 not yet discussed: availability of ammo is probably better based on the fact you already had it. If the Obamascare on guns showed one thing, most military calibers were sold out in a few weeks. Have we all forgotten the whining that went on for months and months about cost and availability? And yet 12ga, .30-30, and .30-06 were on the Mart shelf everyday. Moot point, if a zombie war is declared, I don't delude myself into thinking there will be ANY ammo. I give it 24 hours. Better to have a .30-30. Millions of boxes of that are in the retail system, and many more of them owned by hunters than AR's. The numbers are there, it's a bigger resource.
The second thing is the intro of the .300 BLK, which is actually a marketing takeover by Remington of the Whisper. It's the same thing Les Baer is doing with the .264LBC - otherwise known as the 6.5 Grendel.
Marketing aside, it's a .30 caliber bullet in a 5.56 case. The advantages are using a milspec bolt, not one opened up to the functional limit as the AK requires. Issue mags can be used, too. The cartridge case taper is 5.56, I've yet to read where Pmags couldn't be used.
Two specific loads are being marketed, subsonic for PDW/suppressed use, and normal supersonic. The latter are supposed to have similar ballistics to the 7.62x39/.30-30 class, which means it's entirely adequate for hunting and combat - under 400m.
This is where a good sense of what you need the round to do comes up. It's not the heat like .300 Win Mag., but the creators aren't pushing that anyway. It's being backed by Remington which promises plenty of ammo, and inexpensive to boot. I don't think it will get down to 25c a round, but with most of the components already in production, it could be cheap enough. NO non-military caliber other than .22 will ever be as cheap as taxpayer supported military surplus and reject ammo. Ever. So the .300 BLK isn't the round to have just to pop fireworks. Keep your AK's and 5.56 uppers for that.
The .300 BLK seems to solve a lot of issues right at the mag well level before you even pull the trigger. If .30 cal bullets in a AR is the goal, it would be a better proposition than shoehorning the tapered bullets and curved mag into the straight mag well of a AR. Some things seem to be a good idea, but this still doesn't work out any better than a Cummins in a CJ5. The AK cartridge case is simply the wrong shape for the action. Just because it can be done doesn't mean it should be.
To me, if there is a zombie that needed to die, it's the AK ammo in an AR fad.
Maverick223
Member
Tirod, while I am excited to hear about the introduction of a non-proprietary 6.5Grendel, I don't believe the .300 BLK will afford the kind of performance advertised. I think it will prove to be far closer to the .30Carbine than the .30-30Win. or 7.62x39mm. There simply isn't enough case capacity to get you there IMO. That is not, however, to suggest that it is a bad cartridge...I always like the .30Carbine.
shooterjon
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- Joined
- Oct 24, 2009
- Messages
- 10
C- prod mag issue too
I have a del-ton 7.62 x39 upper on a Bushy lower. Love the round . My issue also seems to be a mag problem. Have two 10 rounders from C-products that will not feed. I have to manually pull the bolt back for each round. I have even short loaded the mags with still the same issue. And the when loaded the mags are almost impossible to unload by hand. They are just so tight in the mag. I am so frustrated. Have tried a C- product 30 rounder short loaded to 26 and it worked fine till about shot 10-15 then the same issue, but aleast I know my rifle is working. So Im deducing it is a mag issue. At this point I am trying to get ahold of C-products . One email and one phone message with no luck. Thanks for letting me vent.
I have a del-ton 7.62 x39 upper on a Bushy lower. Love the round . My issue also seems to be a mag problem. Have two 10 rounders from C-products that will not feed. I have to manually pull the bolt back for each round. I have even short loaded the mags with still the same issue. And the when loaded the mags are almost impossible to unload by hand. They are just so tight in the mag. I am so frustrated. Have tried a C- product 30 rounder short loaded to 26 and it worked fine till about shot 10-15 then the same issue, but aleast I know my rifle is working. So Im deducing it is a mag issue. At this point I am trying to get ahold of C-products . One email and one phone message with no luck. Thanks for letting me vent.
yotesmoker
Member
broken fireing pins
How come I don't hear about broken fireing pins in the AR 7.62"s like I do in the mini-30?Have thousands thru my colt my colt 7.62 with no problems.Thats the only problem thats keeping me away from the mini.
How come I don't hear about broken fireing pins in the AR 7.62"s like I do in the mini-30?Have thousands thru my colt my colt 7.62 with no problems.Thats the only problem thats keeping me away from the mini.
rbernie
Contributing Member
Read post #38.
As best I can tell, C Products is using the same springs in all mags of a certain body length, regardless of chambering. The heavy-for-size 7.62x39 rounds sometimes take issue with this. The solution is to replace the spring with one from an AK magazine (30rd AK mag spring in the 30rd C Products mag, 10rd AK mag spring in the 10rd C Products mag).
The promoters of the .300 BLK are promising and showing ballistic tables with performance the same as the 7.62 x 39. AK ammo isn't highly loaded tactical stuff, it won't be that hard to push the performance with the right powder and very careful attention to leade and twist. If anything, the .300 Whisper crowd answered all the comparative questions years ago.
The advantage will be using the issue bolt and magazines. The disadvantage will be no military surplus, so regardless of how "inexpensive" is defined, I don't see less than $15 a box.
The two cheapest calibers out there, aside from .22, are 5.56 or 7.62x39. If blasting a lot of ammo for a low price is important, that the choice, no other viable option exists. If you want to shoot from the gun with the better set of operating controls, get an AR, if hunting and casual range use, get the AK. Getting one with the other caliber doesn't work because the designers made the mag wells incompatible. I say that having shot a Valmet in .223, nobody seems to think it was a good idea, I see no attempts to barrel an AK in 5.56. Hey, it's a cheap caliber, right, it should be a going deal! No, not so much. It's because nobody wants a varmint round in the AK. I don't see much talk about the 5.45 AK-74 on the boards, why is that?
More people want a big bullet in a small gun, apparently that seems to get their interest more. If they would make an AR lower that took the AK mag, the whole project would fly. Use a superbolt and go with it. Even Colt has built AR's to take the 7.62x39, they sold very few. It's all about the straight mag well, and if you CUT IT OFF, it might work.
As it is, you have a ten shot semi auto with .30-30 ballistics, and a Win 94 would be as easy to use.
The advantage will be using the issue bolt and magazines. The disadvantage will be no military surplus, so regardless of how "inexpensive" is defined, I don't see less than $15 a box.
The two cheapest calibers out there, aside from .22, are 5.56 or 7.62x39. If blasting a lot of ammo for a low price is important, that the choice, no other viable option exists. If you want to shoot from the gun with the better set of operating controls, get an AR, if hunting and casual range use, get the AK. Getting one with the other caliber doesn't work because the designers made the mag wells incompatible. I say that having shot a Valmet in .223, nobody seems to think it was a good idea, I see no attempts to barrel an AK in 5.56. Hey, it's a cheap caliber, right, it should be a going deal! No, not so much. It's because nobody wants a varmint round in the AK. I don't see much talk about the 5.45 AK-74 on the boards, why is that?
More people want a big bullet in a small gun, apparently that seems to get their interest more. If they would make an AR lower that took the AK mag, the whole project would fly. Use a superbolt and go with it. Even Colt has built AR's to take the 7.62x39, they sold very few. It's all about the straight mag well, and if you CUT IT OFF, it might work.
As it is, you have a ten shot semi auto with .30-30 ballistics, and a Win 94 would be as easy to use.
Maverick223
Member
The .223Rem./5.56NATO works fine in the AK platform, and is relatively popular (probably the second most popular Saiga). Contrary to popular belief the .223s case taper (or lack thereof) causes no feeding or extraction issues. Also the only issue with the AR is the magazine, and by some accounts this problem has been rectified.
There are a lot of folks that don't realize that it is available (or exists), but most that do also recognize the merits (lesser ammunition cost, typically greater accuracy, faster follow-up shots, et cetera) of the 5.45x39.5mm.
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