Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

7.62x39 defense ammo?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by -v-, Jun 28, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. -v-

    -v- Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    1,217
    Hey all, so I recently picked up my first rifle, a decent looking Romak991 with normal furniture. I've been looking about for some decent HP home defense ammo. From what little I've learned so far is that JSP are a reasonable choice. Brass-fetcher's gel of the federal 123g JSP do look impressive. The other choice that I am curious about is the Bear and Wolf JHP offerings. I've scoured the 'net, but I haven't been able to find any gel-o results for either of these. Do any of you guys have any experience with these lines as far as their expansion and penetration goes?

    One thing that concerns me, is from one of the links, it showed that Wolf JHP has a steel jacket with a .008" copper plating. Will a steel jacket reliably expand? Also as I understand most of the currently offered 7.62x39 is of the M67 ball verity. Is it safe to trust to the fragmentation/tumbling of M67? Some people say its equivalent to 5.56x45, but I've not seen any definitive tests either. Any help is appreciated.
     
  2. gtmerkley

    gtmerkley member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2008
    Messages:
    299
    Location:
    Southern Hoosier state away from South Bend
    Try some extreme shock with power ball and i'm not talking Lotto.
     
  3. chris in va

    chris in va Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2005
    Messages:
    6,097
    Location:
    Louisville KY
    I just use the American softpoint 'hunting' ammo and call it good. Less chance of overpenetration.
     
  4. Picard

    Picard Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2008
    Messages:
    974
    Location:
    Illinois
    I heard that for hunting, Wolf Military Classic JHP expands great and has excellent wound channels. Also looking at the price, I would recommend it. If it isn't good for defense, you can always use it for target practice or even hunting.
     
  5. bang_bang

    bang_bang Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2006
    Messages:
    1,136
    Location:
    Elk Creek, Virginia
    I've cycled several rounds of JHP through my SKS and found out that when shooting white pines approximately 2-1/2 ft diameter, it takes about 5 trees in a row to stop a JHP from 25 yards. If you're talking about home defense, I really wouldn't want to live near your house. There isn't a lot of JHP or SP ammunition that you can feed these weapons that will not over-penetrate.

    If you're more concerned about stopping power/wound size, SP or JHP will leave a mark.
     
  6. BammaYankee

    BammaYankee Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2008
    Messages:
    135
    A few years ago I bought some 7.62x39 ammo from D&S Mfg. that were loaded with Hornady VMAX's. These are awesome hd or hunting loads! I haven't seen them offered since, but I think Cabelas has similar loads for sale sometimes.
     
  7. SnakeLogan

    SnakeLogan Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2008
    Messages:
    167
    Winchester FMJ will do the job just fine.
     
  8. hankdatank1362

    hankdatank1362 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2006
    Messages:
    2,378
    Location:
    Myrtle Beach
    Oh man I hope that was a joke.

    So, you mean 7.69x39 out of your sks will penetrate 12.5 feet of solid wood? :scrutiny:

    +1
     
  9. briansmithwins

    briansmithwins Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2005
    Messages:
    4,063
    Try Corbon DPX. Expensive but you get a bullet that's the best.

    Whatever you do, make sure that the ammo you plan on using works in YOUR rifle. Nobody else has your rifle and what works in one may not work in another. Case in point, I've got some EG short range training ammo, it functions 100% in some of my magazines, and chokes 50% in others. Other people will have different experiences.

    BSW
     
  10. rbernie
    • Contributing Member

    rbernie Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2004
    Messages:
    20,561
    Location:
    Norra Texas
    The Russian SP ammo does OK, if you're on a budget; at least it sheds it jacket quickly. It'll produce better wound channels than the HP fodder.
     
  11. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2002
    Messages:
    20,882
    Location:
    Atlanta
    Go get some empty milk jugs. Fill with water and cap them. Line them up.

    Shoot them with ammunition you've found to be reliable and reasonably accurate.

    Understand that penetration in water will be deeper, and expansion larger, than in tissue, but this will give you a decent idea of what your cartridge can do. Personally, I want about 3 milk jugs penetration for SD (with less than 2 being too shallow, and more than 4 being too much), and 4-6 for hunting deer-sized game.

    John
     
  12. brooks

    brooks Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2003
    Messages:
    105
    Location:
    St.Paul
    A Russian brand Barnual has HP and I found them probably more accurate than Wolf. I got mine through Sportsman's Guide.
     
  13. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2005
    Messages:
    11,375
    Location:
    Northwest Arkansas
    OMG! It's a rifle people even with the cheapest ammunition it's only about 600% more effective than the best handgun ammunition made today. Just pick an ammo that shoots good and functions reliable and roll with it.
     
  14. jlbraun

    jlbraun Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2005
    Messages:
    2,213
    Cor-Bon DPX is a good bullet from what I hear.
     
  15. Ratshooter

    Ratshooter Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2007
    Messages:
    2,287
    Location:
    Burleson,Texas
    Krocus you are absolutely correct. I just hope the OP who ask the question is trying to find a round to minimize penetration.

    My cousin was messing with his dads rifle, An 8mm Mauser and managed to fire the gun in the house. The bullet went through several interior walls, through the brick veneer, through the brick veneer on the neighbors house and stopped after a couple of interior walls. That was with soft point hunting ammo.

    I don't think i would feel comfortable shooting a full blown rifle in a house. A 223 with varmint ammo maybe. Maybe not.

    P.S. My cousin isn't trusted with guns right now.
     
  16. -v-

    -v- Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Messages:
    1,217
    Ratshooter: That is exactly my intent. I realized that most any ammunition in 7.62x39 is an effective round. However, I am interested in my shots stopping in the attacker, not the neighbor's bedroom, as has been your cousin's unfortunate experience.
     
  17. HorseSoldier

    HorseSoldier Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2006
    Messages:
    5,297
    Location:
    Anchorage, AK
    I'd recommend getting a shotgun, then.

    Even with good training and proficiency with the weapon, you're likely to sling some rounds in a life and death situation, so if you have concerns about where stray bullets might go, you should plan on it happening, and what your defensive load, whatever it might be, is going to do when it doesn't have a bad guy to slow it down or start it yawing.
     
  18. RyanM

    RyanM Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,412
    Location:
    PA
    Wolf Military Classic 124 gr JHP is what you want. Ulyanovsk uses a good bullet. They must use a pretty soft steel for the jacket, because it performs on par with the domestic JSPs. Here's the jello data I found:

    Lapua 125 gr JSP, 16" barrel
    2316 fps
    17.3" penetration
    0.62" expanded diameter
    122.6 gr retained weight

    Winchester 123 gr JSP, 16" barrel
    2253 fps
    14.4" penetration
    0.56" expanded diameter
    110.6 gr retained weight

    Ulyanovsk (WMC/Sapsan) 124 gr JHP, 16" barrel
    2297 fps
    15.0" penetration
    0.63" expanded diameter
    100.5 gr retained weight

    Federal Classic Hi-Shok 123 gr JHP, 20" barrel
    2254 fps
    14.0" penetration
    0.632" expanded diameter
    93.7 gr retained weight

    Tula (Wolf Performance) 154 gr JSP, 20" barrel
    2095 fps
    A buttload of penetration (over 16.3" in one test, over 20" in another; using MacPherson's equations, I get 23.3")
    0.476" expanded diameter
    114.7 gr retained weight
     
  19. _N4Z_

    _N4Z_ Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2005
    Messages:
    1,014
    Location:
    Michigander lost in... The Yonders, Oklahoma
    At home defense distances, we will say well under 50 yards, this is not realistic. x39 at such a short range, even in soft point, will likely pass through a two legged target and keep right on going.

    12ga w/ 00buck is the king of this hill. If x39 is your only option then go with the softpoint, and do your best to know what is behind your target.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2008
  20. Ratshooter

    Ratshooter Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2007
    Messages:
    2,287
    Location:
    Burleson,Texas
    V good luck on your ammo search. Let us know what you end up with and the results of any performance testing you do.

    I think it is on this sight that someone posted pictures of wild pigs shot with 7.62x39 ammo. I think he used a mini 30. There were photos of his wife who hunts and i think he was from Georgia. Maybe he'll read this and post a link.

    As to my cousin, that happened many years ago. But if you want to see a room full of aunts and uncles disappear all you have to do is let my cousin pick up a gun. It makes you think the rapture just happened.
     
  21. strat81

    strat81 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2006
    Messages:
    3,912
    Location:
    Nebraska
    Do a search for "sapsan bullet" in Google (no quotes). Draw your own conclusions.
     
  22. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2002
    Messages:
    20,882
    Location:
    Atlanta
    This makes NO sense. You have much better control of your rounds with a carbine. I remember one of P. Kokalis' complaints regarding the inexpensive 7.62x39mm HP years ago was that they didn't penetrate enough. Go try them in water or soaked newsprint. I think you may find that penetration and expansion may be ideal for your needs.

    All other things being equal, a heavy for caliber bullet is going to penetrate more deeply than a light for caliber bullet. 8x57mms are typically heavy bullets, while a 124 grain .311 bullet is very light for caliber.

    J
     
  23. MTMilitiaman

    MTMilitiaman Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2005
    Messages:
    2,552
    Location:
    Missoula, Montana
    Minimizing penetration is the worst thing you can do in a home defense scenerio. I don't know where all this hype behind over penetration came from, but if you'll note that professionals don't buy it and still adher to minimum penetration standards rather than maximum penetration standards, then you can understand that penetration is your friend. Too much penetration can be dangerous, true. But not enough will get you killed, and it is far easier to get too little penetration than too much.

    The FBI requires at least 12 inches of penetration, even after penetrating heavy clothing, rolled steel, or windshield auto glass. You think they do this because they want minimum penetration? Or because they have lost agents do to just that and set protocols to avoid it in the future? They as well as myself both like 14 to 16 inches rather than just 12.

    The bullet must be able to reach the vitals regardless of what shot angle, muscle or bone tissue, or other obstacles it encounters.

    When you consider the majority of Americans are overweight and 1/3 of them are obese, why would you work to minimize penetration? Because some mall ninja who has never shot living things with a gun recommends varmint bullets in a .223 or birdshot in a shotgun?

    I have shot living things with these loads, and while impressive on small game, they were obviously not ever intended to be used on larger, more dangerous game, such as humans. Some people must be able to guarantee that the bad guy in their living room will be one of the ones that isn't overweight, and that shot presentation will be the ideal frontal shot as on the range, and that the bullet won't be required to penetrate a forearm, heavy clothing, and several inches of fat tissue, muscle, and bone before entering the chest cavity and beginning its job. I, however, can make none of these guarantees, so I load to get enough penetration on big guys, even with less than ideal shot presentation.

    In 7.62x39, any M67 pattern ball round will work, even if not ideal. My experience shows the 122 gr Wolf FMJ has an air pocket in the forward 1/3 length of its nose to induce rapid yawing. In gelatin, this bullet typically begins yawing within the first 4 to 6 inches of tissue, verses 8+ inches in the original M43 ball round. My single experience with this bullet on game was a broadside shot at a small (~140 pounds live weight) white tail doe from about 50 yards. The bullet entered behind the onside shoulder and exited through the offside scapula sideways, leaving an oblong exit wound with scattered bone fragments and other nastiness. The doe made it 40 to 50 feet, curled up under a tree, and died. My limited experience shows this load to actually do more damage than a .223 caliber 55 gr Winchester soft point at the same range. The bullet will, nevertheless, still penetrate 14+ inches of pine and still be lethal. So as with everything else, misses will be a lot more dangerous to bystanders than those that hit the bad guy.

    The Wolf 122 gr JHP, in my experience, fragments rapidly in water. I've never shot anything larger than a ground squirrel with them. When I have the choice, I keep JHPs in my AK for self defense rather than FMJs, but I've had them both loaded next to the head of my bed at one point or another. As the testing results posted by another poster indicate, most of these loads still penetrate 12+ inches in gelatin, but anything that manages to exit the body will more than likely lack sufficient energy to penetrate several interior walls or exit the building. This can not be said to the same degree about the FMJ, which even sideways or traveling base forward, could possibly still be lethal or penetrate a couple walls.

    I'll probably switch over to the Wolf MC 124 gr JHP for defense from now on...

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  24. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2002
    Messages:
    20,882
    Location:
    Atlanta
    MT,

    In general, I agree with your post, except for the FBI specs stuff. LEO may have to fire through auto glass, and stopping perps in cars is common. I don't plan on this, so my basic HD load will be something that won't penetrate like the dickens. I'm fine with 10" of explosive penetration in tissue: I just won't hunt deer with that round.

    Something else to consider: those 5 Gal buckets, if you used the common hard plastic type, are pretty tough. I'd be satisfied with penetration into the second 5 gal for HD. You can always have another mag with M43 or 67 ready in case you need extra penetration for some reason. Back before 7.62x39mm AP was restricted, I had 10 rounds on a stripper clip for my SKS, and frangible in the mag.

    J
     
  25. HorseSoldier

    HorseSoldier Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2006
    Messages:
    5,297
    Location:
    Anchorage, AK
    From personal experience, 7.62x39 is a much better penetrator than 00 buckshot on cars and structural materials.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page