7.62x54R Headspace question

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K3

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I finally found a Forster field gauge for 7.62x54R. My go and no-go gauges both fit into the head of the bolt and under the extractor properly. Rifle passes go test. Fails no-go test (Bolt closes with no special effort). These are PTG gauges. I know I shouldn't mix brands due to tolerance stacking, but I've had a hard time finding gauges for Mosins, so I got what I could.

So.... I can't get my Forster field gauge to even go into the bolt face under the extractor. It'll go under the extractor but then you can't get it to sit aligned with the length of the bolt, thus being unable to move the bolt forward.

Is this a defective gauge?

Does it merely mean that the field test has been passed?

Any helpful advice/tips would be much appreciated. :)
 
Will it fit the bolt-face with the extractor removed?

Normally, headspace tests should be done with a stripped bolt so there is no outside interference muddying up the feel of the bolt pressure necessary to attempt to close it.

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rcmodel
 
Doesn't the bolt still need to function for the test? I can remove the extractor, and I'm sure it will still function, but I guess I'm not sure what you mean by stripped.

I'll need to let some Kroil soak it before I can remove it though.
 
Yes, on the Mossy the bolt has to be assembled to function.

With other rifles, such as a Mauser or Springfield, it is customary to remove the striker / FP spring & extractor to use a head-space gage correctly.

I just thought maybe that Forster didn't allow for the extractor interference when they made them.

I really don't know though.

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rcmodel
 
It'll function without the extractor, I'm pretty sure of that.

Problem now is, I can't get the #%@$ extractor out. I let it soak on Kroil for a good long while. Still no bueno.

I'll probably just trade this rifle in for another that passes the no-go test.

Yankee Engineers makes a set of gauges that slip right on without any disassembly, but I don't want to spend another $80 - $90 for another set of gauges when that's all the rifle is worth. I should have ordered the Yankee gauges and just waited for them to arrive even with the leadtime. :banghead:

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/headspace/index.asp

http://hometown.aol.com/yankeng/myhomepage/business.html
 
Question:

Just how sensitive is the MN to headspace variations?
Is it going to blow up or give casehead separations if the chamber is a little roomy? With surplus ammunition? With reloads?

Are Mausers worse? Better?
 
The specs on the 303 Brit are so loose for headspace and ammo, that all other cartridge concerns seem trivial.

If the 303 is any example, I put three layers of masking tape [.005" per layer] on the back of the ammo. If it chambers easily, it failed.

If I have a loose headspace rifle, I don't full length resize the brass, or sooner or later, I will get a case separated in the chamber, and they can be hard to get out.
 
I personally don't think excess headspace is as dangerous as it is cracked up to be.

Back when these rifles were new a hundred years ago, brass was not nearly as good as it is now.
Case-head seperations in the field were very common, and broken case extractors were issued to deal with them.

All that is going to happen if a case seperates due to excess headspace is, just as Clark said. You are going to have the front 2/3rds of the case stuck in the chamber to deal with.

The rear head section of the case will still provide a good gas seal, and the rifle will not leak gas in your face or blow up.

If I had a Mossy, I would tape-check it like Clark also mentioned, and go shooting.

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rcmodel
 
So, since I've shot probably 100 rounds through it with no ill effects other than an occasional stuck bolt on mil-surp ammo (probably because of the thicker rim?), I shouldn't worry?

A moderate tap with a mallet opens the bolt easily.
 
I don't want to shoot anything I have to beat open with a mallet, but then I am not in tune with the Communist Surplus Movement anyhow.

Hehe, a mallet comes with the Mosin as part of the accessory pack that also includes the cleaning rod and that funky little whiskey flask looking container of *stuff*. :D

With a Mosin, the mallet is more likely to break than the rifle.
 
Headspace gauges should be checked with the bolt fully dis-assembled including the extractor.
There is quite a bit of camming power with a bolt gun so insert gauge and close bolt GINGERLY.
Respectfully, Zeke
 
Headspace gauges should be checked with the bolt fully dis-assembled including the extractor.
There is quite a bit of camming power with a bolt gun so insert gauge and close bolt GINGERLY.
Respectfully, Zeke

How does this work with a Mosin?
FULLY disassembled? A Mosin bolt has 6 or 7 pieces when fully disassembled. Then how does one work the bolt to determine headspace? After all, pass/fail is determined by whether or not a bolt will close, is it not?

I'm not seeing it, and according to this site, it appears to be unnecessary for some gauges:

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/headspace/index.asp
 
I've only had dangerously bad headspace with one Mosin, a VERY battle worn M28-30 from the Winter War that appeared to have been fired until the barrel was melting. I fired that one with a string and it busted most every primer, making a mess but otherwise functioning OK. I've had a lot more headspace problems with rimless military rifles such as the Mausers. On Mosins you'll likely only notice it being more sticky.

To fix it you can simply use the go/no go to fit a new bolt head. This is what the Finns did. Of course you need a bunch of spare bolt heads to do it. This is one reason I stick with the SA label when possible. Or you can just use it if it's not too bad out of whack. I draw the line at burst primers or incipient case splits. Remember though you need to use BRASS cartridges to inspect for headspace related problems. Steel doesn't show you.

Is this a defective gauge?

Not defective, but possibly not really for a Soviet 54R. There are a number of rim style variations with that round if you notice. Some have a different shape than others. If your gauge is set for match level 53R, it may not function properly with a surplus Mosin. I don't use them for Mosins, though I always do for Mausers. For Mosins I rely on experience and do a check with a moderly handloaded brass round or three before firing in earnest. Visually check the brass in detail to see warning signs such as cratering primers (not always a problem) or the second line of stretch marks horizontal to the rim (big problem). I also check the brass for any weirdness that might indicate the chamber being out of round or chamber burrs.

DSCF0259a.jpg

Problem now is, I can't get the #%@$ extractor out. I let it soak on Kroil for a good long while. Still no bueno.

Use a vise and a brass punch. It just takes a few whacks in the right place and it will come right out.

Worst case scenario on this is a case separation and kaboom. That can end up injuring you, though I've never heard of any instance in any war or at any range of a Mosin bolt shearing its lugs, let alone shearing its handle/safety lug. The sheer size of that piece of steel makes sheering unlikely, so damage is going to be limited to your off hand and people standing near you. That said the untampered Mosins are incredibly strong. I remember a series of tests on the old collector's forum where a fellow intentionally plugged the barrels on a 91/30 and kept firing. It took multiple stuck bullets before it kaboomed, and then it just bulged the barrel. There are of course no guarantees, and good luck suing the makers ;-) But among the surplus rifles there are some I would NEVER put my face behind (the Krag for example) and some that don't worry me at all, such as the Mauser 98 and the Mosin 91.
 
After looking at an exploded view of the Mosin bolt, I can see why the bolt must be assembled to function.
Suggestion: try removing the trigger and sear to take any tension off the bolt when checking headspace.
Once again, GINGERLY.
Zeke
 
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