A local gun shop offered me some steel cased (green) fmj , the case head was marked uxq 53 1 or i . they were on stripper clips ( marked bxn53 ) . In 50 round tan cardboard boxes. the boxes no longer had markings. He said they were 30 mauser , but I'm not convinced. Could be tokarev ? Anybody have any info ? Thanks
7.63 ammo ?
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VPL: They could be 7.63x25, which was the Mauser C96 (Broomhandle Mauser) round. The 7.63x25 (also known as .30 Mauser) round was the basis for the 7.62x25 Tokarev round. The 7.63x25 Mauser round can be shot in a Tokarev, but the reverse is not true. 7.62x25 ammo is loaded much hotter than the original German round, and will damage a C96.
The rounds are pretty much visually indistinguishable. You should assume any such unknown ammo is designed for the Tokarev.
The rounds are pretty much visually indistinguishable. You should assume any such unknown ammo is designed for the Tokarev.
WardenWolf: So then this would be the C96 you mentioned. I see how the rounds look the same, and the design of the pistol would require the use of a stripper clip for easy loading.
So if someone had a Tokarev, and the 7.63 ammo happened to be available (and cheap), would you recommend buying it for practice ammo since it is not as hot as the 7.62?
So if someone had a Tokarev, and the 7.63 ammo happened to be available (and cheap), would you recommend buying it for practice ammo since it is not as hot as the 7.62?
I wouldn't recommend it, because while it works, and indeed the German army ordered tons of 7.63 Mauser ammo for use in captured Tokarevs, it still is not the proper ammo for the gun. The case length is about .14 millimeter longer, which means the gun will likely be firing with the slide slightly out of battery. This, and other minor case dimensional differences mean that it is not really advisable.
If you would like to tame the recoil, I recommend purchasing a compensator for the gun, available here:
https://fs943.infusionsoft.com/app/storeFront/showSubCategoryPage?subcategoryId=99
If you would like to tame the recoil, I recommend purchasing a compensator for the gun, available here:
https://fs943.infusionsoft.com/app/storeFront/showSubCategoryPage?subcategoryId=99
Thanks for the info, learned something new today 
I'm debating between a Tokarev, CZ-82, or the 83 for my next pistol, it all comes down to ammo availability, and interchangability (that whole 38/357 concept).
I'm debating between a Tokarev, CZ-82, or the 83 for my next pistol, it all comes down to ammo availability, and interchangability (that whole 38/357 concept).
Thanks for the info, learned something new today
I'm debating between a Tokarev, CZ-82, or the 83 for my next pistol, it all comes down to ammo availability, and interchangability (that whole 38/357 concept).
Well, the 9x18 guns have a similar situation. They can fire .380 (which is 9x17) in a pinch, but it's not recommended for general use. Basically, if it was the only ammo available, yes, any 9x18 gun can chamber and fire .380 safely. You may get slightly reduced accuracy because 9x18 is .362 versus .380's .357 diameter, but generally it's not enough to make a difference and many people reload 9x18 with the same bullets from .380.
As for ammo availability, well, it's a tossup:
When it comes to 7.62x25, ammo is fairly cheap and easy to come by, far more so than 7.63x25. You will hardly ever find any 7.63 Mauser ammo, as the guns themselves just are not that common and far less popular than the various Tokarevs and CZ-52. New-production 7.63 ammo is out there, just uncommon, whereas Wolf, S&B, PRVI Partizan, and various other companies make 7.62x25. The Tokarev also has the advantage that it can be easily converted to 9mm Luger. A simple barrel and bushing swap is all that is required. The existing 7.62x25 magazines usually work just fine with 9mm, although dedicated 9mm magazines are also available. The Tokarev disassembles exactly like a 1911, and the barrel swap can be done in under 5 minutes.
For 9x18, you have Silver Bear, S&B, Hornady, and quite a few others. However, despite there being only 4 different 9x18 pistols on the US market (Makarov, CZ-82, P-64, PA-63), Hornady failed to function test their ammo across a variety of platforms. At least one of their 9x18 offerings will not function in the Polish P-64. An actual Makarov will eat anything, but its siblings are sometimes slightly more tempermental. And, of course, for .380 you have the usual manufacturers. Their offerings may similarly cause feeding issues if you're not using an actual Makarov, though.
I own guns in both calibers. I have a Romanian Tokarev which I've tricked out with a Chinese chrome-lined 7.62x25 barrel and that compensator I linked earlier. I also have the parts necessary to convert it to 9mm. It shoots like a good 1911. I also own a Bulgarian Makarov, Polish P-64, and a Hungarian PA-63. The Makarov-caliber guns make good concealed-carry guns or "fun" guns, and are definitely better than any commercial .380. They're all highly accurate and absolutely reliable with proper ammunition. For self-defense, though, it's hard to argue with the Tokarev round and a good hollowpoint. Wolf makes some nasty hollowpoints, but even better can be had either by reloading or through a few special-order companies. These can cause damage greatly exceeding even 9mm or .45 ACP, if ballistics gel tests are anything to go by.
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To add a little bit of clarity.........The 7.62 Tokarev and 7.63 Mauser rounds have exactly the same dimensions, and any differences you may find measuring them will be the same as you will find between different manufacturers of 9mmP or .38SPL. The 7.62 Tokarev round is simply what the Soviets started calling it when they ran out of imported 7.63 Mauser ammo and decided to produce the cartridge themselves, back in the late 1920s. Conventional wisdom states that ALL 7.62 Tokarev ammo is loaded much hotter than ALL 7.63 Mauser ammo. That is not ALWAYS true, but I won't get into that here.
However, what the OP posted is Czech milsurp 7.62 Tokarev ammo. It is loaded for both CZ52 and Tokarev pistols, as well as Czech and other East Bloc SMGs. It is generally considered to be too hot for most Mauser pistols, especially those that might have had a hard lofe in China.
However, what the OP posted is Czech milsurp 7.62 Tokarev ammo. It is loaded for both CZ52 and Tokarev pistols, as well as Czech and other East Bloc SMGs. It is generally considered to be too hot for most Mauser pistols, especially those that might have had a hard lofe in China.
Wolf and jonnyc: Thanks for the great lesson on ammo
spence: I'm going to blame my next pistol purchase on you, since you resparked my interest in old east European firearms.
spence: I'm going to blame my next pistol purchase on you, since you resparked my interest in old east European firearms.
There was some Bulgarian Tok ammo imported that destroyed some pistols(kaboom). It appears the powder degraded. I'd be wary of the ammo, if I didn't know it's country of origin.
Never heard of that, and it wouldn't make sense for powder to become more powerful as it degrades. However, steel-cased corrosive ammo can sometimes rust from the inside out. That's probably what happened. If you want good surplus ammo, get Romanian if you can find it. They have brass cases with the bullets crimped in to ensure they stay put. Generally anything Romanian can be considered solid, as their manufacturing equipment and techniques were head and shoulders above even Russia.
Thank you all for your input . I wont buy the czech surplus . 7.62x25 . I'll take the blame for your next gun purchase vplthrneck! and I recomend the Tokarev. Its alot of fun to shoot. especially at night the muzzle blast is tremendous . I'm kind of dissapointed. The magazine spring in the spring kit I ordered from wolff springs is back ordered. So I'm not going to shoot my new to me bolo mauser for a couple of weeks.
I'm curious why people think the Tokarev is a hotter round. According to the CIP, the maximum pressure limit for the Tokarev is 34,800 psi and the Mauser is 37,700 psi.
56hawk, the Mauser is not as robust a gun overall. The chamber may be able to take the pressure, but the bolt and various other components cannot. Pressures that the Tokarev's action can handle constantly will quickly damage and break the Mauser.
I just bought some 7.63 Mauser rounds the other day for my cz52. Fiocchi and Partizan (Serb) I find Fiocchi to be some of the best ammo for euro guns.
The Bulgarian powder supposedly didn't become more powerful, but as it degraded it became more of an explosive and less of a propellant. From what I understand, the rounds exploded instead of burned.
But, that was 15 years ago and I have wondered if it was more lore than reality. I have heard the story repeated but the lot must have been very, very small indeed because you just don't hear about guns going boom from it. It is more akin to an urban myth than reality. It's basis may, or may not, have come from a real event, but that it has been expanded until it is considered gospel today.
But, that was 15 years ago and I have wondered if it was more lore than reality. I have heard the story repeated but the lot must have been very, very small indeed because you just don't hear about guns going boom from it. It is more akin to an urban myth than reality. It's basis may, or may not, have come from a real event, but that it has been expanded until it is considered gospel today.
That's not really possible, Ash, unless something manages to dramatically increase the rate the powder burns. Generally the only way to do that is to increase the exposed surface area. Possibly breaking down into smaller granules would do it, but that effect would be minimal at best. No, what almost assuredly happened was the casings corroded from the inside out. I've seen some ComBloc 7.62x54R surplus where this happened. The most common result is case head failure. Often times someone looking closely can detect signs of corrosion on the outside of the rounds, but sometimes it's completely hidden until the casing lets loose. The Romanian Tokarev ammo I bought is brass-cased and thus resistant to corrosion, but the lower-end steel-cased ammo produced by other countries is certainly vulnerable to this.
There's a number of rumors regarding foreign ammo. One rumor was that the exported Norinco 7.62x39 ammo occasionally had a few deliberately sabotaged rounds intending to blow up peoples' guns and possibly injure them. This was, of course, entirely unfounded. Having your customers' guns blow up is just not good for business. It wasn't some Chinese government plot, either. That would just be stupid. It was simply shoddy manufacturing.
There's a number of rumors regarding foreign ammo. One rumor was that the exported Norinco 7.62x39 ammo occasionally had a few deliberately sabotaged rounds intending to blow up peoples' guns and possibly injure them. This was, of course, entirely unfounded. Having your customers' guns blow up is just not good for business. It wasn't some Chinese government plot, either. That would just be stupid. It was simply shoddy manufacturing.
I've heard people say this and yet the pressure rating for the Mauser ammo is higher.
This is the max pressure for the chamber and the casing, and says nothing about how the round is normally loaded. These pressure ratings do not mean the gun's other components can repeatedly handle the beating those pressures cause. It only means the chamber won't explode. It's like the saying, "Any ship can be a minesweeper, once." It won't blow up outright, but you'll beat the hell out of the frame, bolt, and other components, and eventually they will fail.
Interesting I have never actually looked at the pressure ratings before. All the ratings I have seen put the 7.63 slower than 7.62tok. Still with the way a c96 is designed I would not want to push it too far, there is not a whole lot holding that bolt in from coming straight out the back.
Like I said, the pressure ratings do not tell the whole story. It doesn't mean the gun can handle it. It just means the chamber won't explode and the case won't rupture.
Warden, I merely pointed out the theory, and then proceeded to call it a myth. I was not expressing my opinion on whether or not it happened.
Considering that the listed max for the Mauser is higher. Are you saying that there is factory 30 Mauser ammo that will damage a C96? Or is factory Tokarev ammo loaded above the listed max for both rounds?
AethelstanAegen
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I think that factory 30 Mauser isn't loaded up to it's theoretical max. Just because the cartridge could theoretically take it, doesn't mean people are loading it that way. All that old (milsurp as used in C96s) 30 Mauser ammo is generally much lower pressures than factory (milsurp) 7.62x25. I think WardenWolf's very valid point is that the pressure rating has little to do with how the ammo is actual loaded at the factory and if loaded to the max pressure rating, you'd have a lot of problems in a C96.
bxn53 ammo was allegedly loaded for use in the CZ52 pistol and Czech smgs. I have fired some, and my general impression of it is that it is hotter than normal Tokarev ammo.
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