71 yo, unarmed blind woman hit with tazer, pepper spray-said to be "reasonable force"

[El Rojo]

Hey KBR80,

Think about the articles you posted. The first one was obviously biased to the extreme. It made this blind lady sound innocent and helpless. Who do you think supplied the information for that article? I would bet dollars to donuts it was the attourney. You don't know that "little old lady". Think about all of the "victims" in society who were just minding their business when the cops came up to them and started harrassing them. I work in a federal prison and I talk to a lot of them daily. They did nothing wrong. The cops were just after them.

Do not believe everything you hear. Are there cases of police abuse out there? Yes. Should we fight against that? Yes. However, I know a few criminals and generally shady people. They are not honest. They will sell you out in a heart beat if it gets them something. Like I said, I work with a guy who walks around in sun glasses and uses a cane. However, that same "blind" guy sits and types on the typewriters without brail or someone to assist him! Do you think that he just "touch types" and has no idea what his final product looks like? Do you think he is going to waste his time and energy making mistakes and having no way of knowing for sure if he has corrected them? He is blind when it suits him and brings him special treatment.

I do know this, if you fight the cops, they will fight you back. There are things worth fighting for. Physically fighting the cops is not one of them. The system is set up to help them win when you physically fight them. Think of how much stronger that old ladies case would have been if she had been complacent and talked with the officer and asked him to make sure her red wagon was not taken by the city officials and then they beat her up anyway? Wait, they probably wouldn't have done anything to her if she had cooperated with the officers. I wasn't there, so I am not going to make any assumptions. I do know that there are good cops out there and there are two sides to this story. So far we have heard a biased article that tells the "old bats" side. Am I surprised it portrays her as a sweet innocent victim of police oppression? Of course not, anything else would hurt her case and her lawyer won't allow that.

Just remember there are two sides to every story. You appear to blindly believe that this woman was victimized and you assume because she is a 71 year old "blind woman" that she wouldn't lie. I know better. She just made $145,000. She wouldn't have made that money making herself sound like the aggressor. Another question you have to ask is do you think $145,000 is worth what she went through? If the cops had done this to your mother, would you settle for $145,000? Wouldn't you tell them to go to hell and take the thing all the way to trial? Why would you decide to settle for a mere $145,000? If the cops are innocent, why would they settle? Why wouldn't they fight it all the way through?

My theory is she was happy to take $145,000 for fighting the police. The police were happy to stop paying their lawyers and get out cheap instead of risking a jury hitting them for a lot more money. It happens all of the time, people settle in order to reduce their cost. It doesn't mean they are guilty or not guilty of anything. If the cops admitted they had used excessive force, we wouldn't be seeing a settlement. Read the lawyer speak, "there is risk the City may be found liable." All that means is it is cheaper to pay $145,000 now than risk a jury giving her a few million.

Just ask yourself, if you knew you were right and that your rights had been violated, would you settle for $145,000? You want to talk about something things worth fighting for. What happened to the fight in this "old bat" that she would settle for a mere $145,000? Wait, the lawyer still needs their cut. She isn't even going to get $145,000 and the cops are still working. Would you settle if it involved anything less than those bad seeds getting fired? So on one hand we have people saying we should stand up for something and we are looking at this little old lady as another victim of the Jack Booted Thugs, but in reality she sold out. Actually, she only sold out if she was suing by principle. If she was just trying to make some money at the advice of a lawyer, she cashed in. I guess it just depends on how you want to look at it.

More likely, the cops knew they could do what they wanted, and they'd be damned if some citizen got in their way.

Again, do we have any evidence of this? No. Just accusations based upon an inherent dislike of law enforcement. This attitude is so tiring. "More likely". Why is it more likely? Care to offer any evidence? Don't bother trying, you can't. You can give me a list of many other abuse cases, but what does that have to do with our two officers here? Nothing.

 

[c_yeager]

Tell you what, anyone who's worked in a psychiatric ward for geriatrics please raise your hand and tell me that you KNOW that the cops were in the wrong........

OK well, i have, and let me tell you this much. The cops COULD have been in the wrong. It's certainly a possibility. But, its not something i can say for sure with the decided lack of information and the decided lack of OBJECTIVITY from the "author" of this "article". But, the fact remains that i have seen people hurt REAL bad by "harmless little old ladies" like this.

Also, i think we should look at the methods used by police. They used pepper spray and they used a tazer.

Now let me throw this idea out into the forum. If you have an old lady who is trying to hurt you what are you gonna do about it? Grab her by the wrists and hold her down? Congratulations, you just broke her wrists and a hip, she'll spend the rest of her life in a nursing home thanks to you. Or are you going to keep your hands off of her and use methods that CANNOT inflict physical trauma onto the woman? The elderly are people who can PROBABLY take some mace or a taser. But who can be crippled for life by simply taking a stumble. So, with that in mind how would YOU deal with this woman?

edited to add: did anyone else notice the conspicous absence of ANY refference to injuries sustained by the 71 year old woman? Considering an alread biased article i find that quite odd. Are we to take that to mean that these officers managed to arrest a resisting elderly woman without causing any injury to her whatsoever? If so, Kudos to these guys, cause its not an easy thing to do.

 

[John G]

The elderly are people who can PROBABLY take some mace or a taser.

Great quote!

 

[gunsmith]

I got into a fight with a 71 yr old lady once

I would have won but she cheated,she ran me over with her wheelchair.

 

[FedDC]

Ok, you asked for my input and here it is... I have no idea what went on and I am not going to base a discussion on an obviously biased report. I am sure that there are two sides to every story, this one included. I will say that back when I was at the local level, I saw several of these "Cleanup" cases where it was a health/welfare issue for the occupant and neighbors. It is just plain nasty. Garbage piled to the ceiling in every room, rats and roaches running around. I even went into one house where the person's bed was full of maggots...and they were still sleeping there every night! Don't even get me started on the cats (Usually about 50 or 60 of them with no litter box) or the dead animals that are never carried out. Places like that are one big Bio Hazard. I feel for the code enforcement guys that have to deal with that. It often takes years to get an order to go in there and clean it out.

As far as the use of force... like I said, I doubt that we have heard the whole story. For the city to settle means nothing. I have seen the city settle with people that were CONVICTED in court and then given cash in civil court. Settling is more a factor of what the perceived jury sympathy would be (Race based jury etc). There is already a portion of the cuty budget that is marked for these cases because it is expected. What I did note was that none of the officers were held liable personally and none were charged by the dept or punished. Usually, if the dept can blame the officers it will which indicates that the use of force was most likely proper. If the dept could have blamed the officers, it would have.

Personally, I would not want to have some nasty rotten teeth sinking into my arm either. In cases where I have had to deal with people that were nasty (Heroin users with bleeding arms or gang green are the worst), I always try to avoid wrestling with them and am far more likely to use spray or a baton than my hands. It only takes one time where you get some nasty guy's blood all over your hands and face to teach you how nice it is to just use the spray and baton (or in this case taser). The lesson is even more reinforced when you find out that the suspect has untreated TB like I did after we had booked him. All in all, the Ofc had to gain compliance and he had to subdue the suspect, whether she was 9 or 90. I'd like to hear what some of the cop haters would have done differently...after all, they are so full of criticism, lets hear how they would have handled an aggressive violent suspect that was trying to bite and kick them. Maybe they could read them the constitution and explain how they need to be sure and vote...

 

[angrywalkindude]

If I seen the cops do this to my grand'ma, there would be some flag folding.

 

[jimpeel]

c_yeager

edited to add: did anyone else notice the conspicous absence of ANY refference to injuries sustained by the 71 year old woman?

Hey, man, she lost an eye during this scuffle. Have some compassion already.

 

[labgrade]

OK, I admit I haven't read the whole thing, but The Cops came to take away apoiece of heirloom in the old lady's front yard.

What were they "enforcening" in the first place? a relic that was "not understood" by the local zoning legalities!?

& seriously, I may have missed it in the initial post/thread, but ***! what were the cops doing there in the first place AND to have accosted a seemingly & legitimately "old lady" with such use of force was way beyond the realm of anything reasonable.

"they were bit!?" Luckily enough they weren't shot to deqth for every violation of what usee to be sancrosaint in these united states.

F'ing Nazis for eforcing some BS zoning law enacted y some bliss-ninny a$$holes, I'd say on the face of it.

'Course, I could be wrong & the lady in question was a complete nut-job ---- who's to tell with repoting these days? Seems eveyone's got some agnda to post ....


WQTF? & who can even say anymore?

Sadly, I'd side with The Biter. I've less convidece wth The Cops anymore than zthe Bad Guys - sad to say - & to y'all's detriment.

Wanna reestablish reliability &trust? then do so with your actions, not through further gestapo tactics.

Hopefully, enough said.

 

[FedDC]

Lab- Did you even read any of the other posts? If you had, you might understand health and welfare orders. Imagine living next to someone that had a garbage dump, complete with rats the size of dogs and roaches that run into your house. Add in 50 to 60 cats without litter boxes and an odor that would choke a maggot and you might start to get the picture...until one of your kids comes home with some kind of funky skin infection from walking through your own yard.

The Police were there because she became violent with the city workers that tried to clean it up. Rest assured that prior to this, the city had asked her to clean it up many many times. I have seen these houses get 50 to 60 warnings from the health dept before a court would allow a cleanup. This woman, however old made her own bad situation.

 

[standingbear]

good thing she didnt have a fly swatter.I think the whole thing was handled poorly.tasering an elderly person is not a good thing...espec if that person has a pacemaker unknown to her "assailants".sorry but this kind of thing really burns me up.

 

[FedDC]

I still hear a lot of complaining...but no solutions to how the "Experts" would have handled it...

 

[standingbear]

did the elderly woman have family that could have been contacted through social services to help her?going in with force and forcing an elderly person to stand by and wonder what these strangers are doing to her property is going to escalate the situation.things to consider; perhaps she wasnt able to clean it up or perhaps she didnt understand in her thinking it needed cleaned up.would you think your gma or anybody elses gma would resist if some strangers came over and started taking things?get the point yet?

 

[El Rojo]

Labgrade, you need to read at least the two articles that were posted. The cops showed up only after the old lady had conflicted with the city guy who was there to serve a warrant to clean up the front yard. The cops did not show up to take away a family heirloom. In fact, we don't even know where the family heirloom is. They certainly make no mention of its location in the article. For all we know it is either still where grandma left it or in the city officials front yard now. They make no mention of its final outcome.

 

[Jim March]

Attn: cops.

Guys. If you beat the crapola out of 71 year old blind grannies, you will come out looking like a turd. OK? If you then bust her 91 year old mommy, you're gonna look even worse.

Now, from an absolute immediate incident safety standpoint, maybe beating up grannies is slightly safer. The problem is, if the entire community you serve thinks you and your comrades are turds, that is BAD FOR YOUR HEALTH. OK? Do too much of that sort o' thing, you will not like the results. Bigtime.

Am I going too fast here?

 

[Leatherneck]

I dunno...family heirloom red wagon outside in Portland with plants in it? Pretty durable "heirloom" I'd have to say...

I'll bet LawDog would have handled it better.

TC
TFL Survivor

 

[FPrice]

What is wrong with this picture???

First post on THR.

Quoting a very highly emotionally charged, and possibly biased article.

On a subject GUARANTEED to stir up a strong arguement between those who distrust the police and those who try to support them.

Most first posts are something along the lines of, "Hi. I'm John. I like S&W revolvers, military rifles, and long walks in the woods with my dog, Lassie."

How many start off throwing a handgrenade on the forum, hmm?

Where IS my tinfoil hat.......

 

[thefitzvh]

Lawdog is the kind of officer we need more of.

From his past posts, if he ever used force on someone, I would be sure that it was justified and necessary.

Would LOVE to see how he woulda handled this though

 

[glocksman]

Attendants in nursing homes manage to restrain Alzheimer's patients from hurting others all the time without resorting to mace or tasers or seriously injuring the person.


I'm not being unreasonable in expecting police officers to be able to do the same thing.

If I seen the cops do this to my grand'ma, there would be some flag folding.

As Gordon Liddy once said: "Head Shots".

 

[sturmruger]

I read this over on Drudge. It really is a sad story I think the cops should have left her alone for a while to calm down. She obviously isn't going to take and go anywhere.

 

[Chip Dixon]

Rojo, you belong in the PRK.

Anyone who can condone tasering and pepper spraying disabled elderly people is beyond help. LE's with your attitude are why people are afraid of the police -- the very people whom are supposed to be there to protect and serve them. She is blind and elderly. How did the police know that she even knew what was going on? She couldn't see they were cops. To avoid her bites, walk 3 feet to the left. She won't know you are there. Go get a blanket or something to wrap over her face and mouth for a sec while you handcuff her. I don't think she's going to be able to jinjitsu you onto the ground or anything. Police should be of the highest moral caliber. Assault and battery on helpless, crippled old ladies is inexcusable unless they had weapons -- which they did not. Furthermore, OC and taser shocks on elderly people is excessive force. They can't take the same abuse as younger people can. They could have easily gone into cardiac arrest or had some other acute physical condition as a result. Even takedowns and handcuffing should be done carefully, for bones often break easily at that age.

What would have happened if a non-LEO did this to the old lady? I bet they would have been arrested and received a stiff sentence. No one is supposed to be above the law. To let these police go unpunished is wrong. They should be jailed for a few months, and then stuck with desk jobs or made crossing guards or meter maids. They obviously are incapable of enough restraint to deal with the public directly. To let them off lets them think that their actions were completely justified and they'll just go on to do even worse things in the future. Corrupt cops should be dealt with immediately, before they corrupt more cops. It's a vicious cycle that needs to end for the general public to trust the police once again.

I agree with standingbear. The proper thing to do would have been to get the younger, more reasonable members of the family involved in the situation through social services if there are no police with people skills and a knowledge of when is the proper time to escalate a confrontation to send out. Sending cops who are looking for a fight out to accost a disagreeable old lady is not the right thing to do.

 

[Sean Smith]

The initial article was, no doubt, biased as all get-out.

However, it is also true that it is EXTREMELY difficult to construct a scenario where gassing and electrocuting an old blind woman is "reasonable," no matter how ornery she is. What is she gonna do, chase you by sound and bite your ankles? Short of her whipping out a lethal weapon and trying to use it at random, there seems to be no point in doing anything but getting a cup of coffee, setting up a lawn chair and waiting for her to calm down.

Reasonable and unreasonable sources seem to agree on the key points of:

-Old
-Blind
-Not armed

... Which makes even the "mimimum" use of force story (as stated by the police) seem utterly ridiculous in its overkill.

 

[Stebalo]

A picture of old Mrs. Crowder

Here is a picture I found accompanying an older story of the incident from late last year. This story says she is legally blind. I'd be threatened by that too.

story:
http://www.nwcn.com/topstories/stories/NW_100103ORNblindwomanLJ.4dcbd1ff.html

Blind woman to sue Portland police for excessive force

07:35 AM PDT on Wednesday, October 1, 2003


By ABE ESTIMADA / KGW.com

PORTLAND - A 71-year-old Portland woman who is blind intends to sue police because she claims officers used excessive force.

Eunice Crowder was still recovering from the June scuffle with officers. She claimed police went too far when they used handcuffs, tazers and pepper spray when they tried to restrain her outside her north Portland home.

?gThey pepper sprayed me in my prosthesis,?h she said. ?gIt ran through and down my nose so fast.?h

Eunice Crowder, 71, is legally blind. She says Portland police used excessive force after she fought with them. (KGW Photo)
Crowder is seeking unspecified damages in federal court. She is legally blind and has trouble hearing and walking.

?gIt stung,?h she said. ?gIt made me feel like I was choking. It made me angry. I was having trouble breathing. Nobody seemed to care.?h

The trouble began when city crews with warrants were ordered to clean up her messy yard. She became irate after crews tried to take what she described as family heirlooms.

When police were called in, she tried to kick and bite, and officers attempted to restrain her, according to police reports.

Crowder was cited for harassment and interfering with a peace officer. A police spokesman said the bureau can?ft comment on the case because it is under investigation.

Her attorney, Ken Walker, wonders how much force was needed to bring Crowder under control.

?gThe police have knocked her down,?h he said. ?gThey?fve tazered her. They maced her. They handcuffed her. They?fve thrown her in a police car. We think the message needs to be sent that enough is enough.?h

 

[Taipei Personality]

I still hear a lot of complaining...but no solutions to how the "Experts" would have handled it...

Okay, I'll give it a try.

I would have recognized that this was an administrative search warrant, that there was no immediate hazard to life or limb, and that the warrant could be served at a later time after gaining all of the facts of the situation.

This wasn't a warrant for a drug bust. What was she going to do if they delayed, clean the place up?

 

[Joe Demko]

Well, the officers got to go home safely to their families at the end of the shift, and that's what matters most.

 

[ojibweindian]

Well, the officers got to go home safely to their families at the end of the shift, and that's what matters most.

No

What matters most is that the rights of the individual are protected from usurpation of the state.

Unbelievable that there are people here actually defending the macing and tazer-guning of a 71 year old woman, by police, over something that is essentially trivial.