777 load for brass frame .44 Navy

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MCgunner

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20-22 grains max and a round ball, i understand, of fff is the recommended load to keep from damaging a brasser Colt. I'm thinkin' 15-18 grains 777 behind a 220 grain Lee conical. Think that would be light enough? With compression, 777 seems a might hotter than BP. Seems to need compression, though. I reckon I can use my chronograph to check the warmth of the load. Keep that bullet down under 800 fps and it should be okay, ya think?

Opinions requested. Thanks. :D I don't wanna stretch this one like I did my last one. I ain't out to kill anything with it, but paper or maybe cans.
 
I can tell you it's a lot hotter than BP! Just yesterday I was shooting my ROA with all the trip 7 I could get in it. This gun has had a fair amount of work done to it, including David Clement deepening the chambers.

It will now hold a full 40 grains with a 210gr BigLube bullet. I have to load it with a loading stand to compress enough it to make it fit. It flat roars! The same amount of almost anything else didn't have near the kaboom.

The new BigLube bullet is just a joy to load and shoot with its rebated base. The chambers have been chamfered a bit as well but the bullet is just wonderful.

I fired well over a 100 rounds yesterday with no misfires or jams and the gun was incredibly clean. I don't believe it would ever foul up enough to cause problems using Triple 7. But brother, be careful. It has far more a$$ to it than BP or any of the other substitutes. I wanted to try Blackmag as I heard it was in the same league as Triple 7 but with the recent disaster at the MDM factory I doubt that will happen any time soon.
 
777 does not work well compressed like black powder. Velocity and pressure go haywire and it fouls like crazy. With the ball just touching or lightly compressing the powder things are good. Don't take my word for it read the caution on Hodgdon's site.
 
I can tell you it's a lot hotter than BP! Just yesterday I was shooting my ROA with all the trip 7 I could get in it. This gun has had a fair amount of work done to it, including David Clement deepening the chambers.

It will now hold a full 40 grains with a 210gr BigLube bullet. I have to load it with a loading stand to compress enough it to make it fit. It flat roars! The same amount of almost anything else didn't have near the kaboom.
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Mine isn't modified, but I get 1300 fps with a 220 grain Lee cast conical from my ROA. I'm not at all worried about the strength of the ROA or its ability to handle that pressure. I know that without compression, the 777 seems mundane, not much hotter than Pyrodex if any.

Check out the Lee mold. I have a conical and the old discontinued hollow point. They're both accurate. I also have an old .454 mold for my old .44 Navy I haven't used in years.

I don't intend to compress things in the Navy. I guess I'll rely on the chronograph to tell me pressures are okay. I figure 700-800 fps should be safe. It's only got a 5.5" barrel, too, not the long one. I'm mainly concerned by the brass frame, don't wish to stretch it. Would like this one to last a while.
 
Sure the ROA can stand the pressure with compressed 777 and if you don't mind the extra fouling and the 150 to 200fps velocity swings then go for it. Don't believe the velocity swings then run some compressed loads over the chronograph you'll be surprised.
 
Isn't the 20-22 gr more for a steel framed? I'm worried that 15-18 of 777 might be a little on the hot side for a brass framed.
 
Sure the ROA can stand the pressure with compressed 777 and if you don't mind the extra fouling and the 150 to 200fps velocity swings then go for it. Don't believe the velocity swings then run some compressed loads over the chronograph you'll be surprised.
Click to expand...



I did, recently.....

shot
1 1234 fps
2 1269 fps
3 1304 fps
4 1333 fps
5 1287 fps

Mean = 1287 fps
Energy - 807 ft lbs

Not THAT bad. Max extreme spread 99 fps. It's accurate and fun to shoot. Pyrodex doesn't give the recoil, though, and is just as accurate at around 900 fps. I find the fouling much less than pyrodex with the 777. It's at least a dry fouling, no goo. And, there's no sulfur, less corrosive.
 
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Awe, hell, can't find THAT one, but found this.
The apparent dichotomy in recommended loads has started many threads on this and other forums. Your gun has a brass frame; the 25 grain load is the absolute maximum you should use repeatedly as brass frames can wear prematurely under repeatedly heavy loads. Understand that your gun is safe with any load you can manage to stuff in the chambers, but that brass frame will not like being abused.

We often hear about the bad examples; it's nice to have someone point out the good ones. Pietta has really improved their products in the last few years. But, making generalizations from one example can be, well, a bit dangerous. The next one might be from the other end of the spectrum.
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http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=498015&highlight=51+brass+frame
 
My Pietta owner's manual states 12-15gr of fffg for a .44 cal and .454 round ball. I always just assumed that they neglected to add in the higher load for a steel framed (since they sell both).

On the other hand... when I go to Traditions web site (Pietta importer), the downloadable owner's manual from Traditions (for a 1851 Navy) shows 22-30grs of fffg for a .44 cal.

Since you appear to have a chrono... I'd start with the lower and see what the readings are. Don't forget... 15% lower charge with 777 than published BP specs.
 
Reduce 777 loads by 15% to obtain the black powder equivalent. For 25 gr of black powder, use 25*.85=21.25 (I'd round it down to 21).

Compress 777 only enough to ensure the round is seated on the powder with no gap.
 
As I got through posting the above, the UPS lady showed up with the gun. :D I'm quite sure that's the shiniest that brass frame is going to ever be. :D Guess I could polish it on the wheel, not sure.

It's a very tight gun, gonna try to keep it that way. Pretty neat with that 5.5" barrel. It came with a Pietta instruction book, so I reckon I should read that, might answer my own question. :D

There is a Cabela's "information page" packed it that states....

The design and materials used in this revolver are consistent with the originals. Since brass frames are softer and not as capable of handling heavy powder charges as steel framed models, Cabela's recommends using no more than 25 grains of fff black powder or the equivalent in Pyrodex. For most target shooting applications, a powder charge lower than he 25 grains maximum will provide sufficient velocity and accuracy.

USING MAXIMUM LOADS WILL REDUCE THE LIFE OF YOUR REVOLVER!
Click to expand...

I guess that answers the pyrodex question. :D What I think I'll do is chronograph 25 grain equivalents of pyrodex first, then use that velocity as a maximum when working with the 777. I'm thinking starting with 15 grains of 777 and testing accuracy with velocity and finding the most accurate charge. Take along some corn meal filler, too, I reckon. Probably need it.
 
Reduce 777 loads by 15% to obtain the black powder equivalent. For 25 gr of black powder, use 25*.85=21.25 (I'd round it down to 21).
Click to expand...


Thanks. I reckon I'll start out with 20 grains equivalent, then, and maybe back off to check accuracy, get an accurate load. Main think I want to shoot the 777 for is it's less corrosive and cleans up a lot easier. I remember my old one getting kinda gooed up after 50 rounds with fff Goex. One thing I just noticed, ain't gonna get a conical under there. I do have a number of round ball to test, Speer brand. I'll order a round ball mold, I guess, soon. Probably just pick up some round ball next time I'm in town at the gun shop. Hopefully, they'll have some. I'll pick up couple hundred rounds, will get me by for a while until I get a mold.
 
I initially started out with 18 grains of FFFg 777, but I bumped it up to 20 gr with no ill effects. The biggest jump in repeatability was when I started adding 10 gr of cream of wheat to get a consistent ball placement and fill the cylinders. That is the combo I tried with zigzag papers to make cartridges with decent results, but no where near as consistent with lubed felt wads and loose materials.
 
I'm intent on purchasing a chronograph. Not sure which one yet but one of the shooting chrony's get good reviews from Midway.

I gotta tell ya that I fired well over 50 shots using max loads of compressed Trip 7 and there just was no fouling issue. One squirt of Ballistol, a brass brush a few times through and then at most, two patches and the barrel is too clean to leave any residue on the third patch.

As far as the cylinder goes, I squirt with Ballistol, let it sit a bit and then run it under hot water from the sink. Nothing but clean and I don't have to brush or swab it.

I don't know, maybe it's because it's all stainless or Clement really cleaned up the chambers but this gun just has no fouling issues. I shoot pure lead BigLube bullets with Pearl lube almost exclusively and it doesn't seem to mater what powder I use or what velocity. I'm just tickled to death how well my ROA performs.
 
I got one of the first green chronys with the paper screens. It still works after 25 years. I've shot a lot of rounds over that thing. All it reads is shot velocity, nothing fancy, no printers, standard deviation calculations, trajectories, any of that. Just the basics, all I want. I'd like to get a new one with the new screens. They used to offer to convert the screens to the new type on the old chronographs, but they won't do that anymore.
 
f p s spread

denster I think you got some old 777 check your date code,and call hodgeson theyl tell you if your velocity spreads are more than 100 fps,throw the 777 out in the yard as fertilizer,and get a fresh un open pound, as i do every deer season,mc gunners #s look like he has a good batch of 777,as hes getting nearly 44 mag performance (807 fps energy)hornadys 44 mag 225 gr flex tip leverloution bullet at 1410fps 993 me out of a 7 in barrel,) wow i like it!
 
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MCgunner,

How's your wife doing? I hope all is well and you're back in shooting business.

If you're taking that 1851 Navy for a walk, can you take the Companion and the .31 Remmy along as well? I know it's probably not the best time for you to be doing experiments, but maybe you can check the penetration against water-filled jugs? Maybe a penetration test can be done for the 51 Navy as well?
This would really be a lot of help for the black-powder community.

Best wishes to you and your wife.
 
Ratdog68 said:
Isn't the 20-22 gr more for a steel framed? I'm worried that 15-18 of 777 might be a little on the hot side for a brass framed.
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+1

22grs of T7 is the equivalent of 25.3grs of BP. That load well cause accelerated wear and tear on a brass frame revolver. If you want to use T7 in a brass .44 I would limit it to 18-19grs.
 
Mmm, well, maybe I'll try 15 grains 777 first. Main thing, don't wanna damage the brass frame like I did the last one I had in my ignorant youth. OR, I could just shoot pyrodex in it.

batjka, she's showing a tiny bit of improvement, but it's slow. Between running to Houston to check on her and working, I haven't had much time for a range trip. I've collected the milk jugs and I took a page from a youtube vid I watched and stuffed 'em full of news paper slivers and will soak 'em over night before the test. It seemed to work in that vid and will be a lot less risk of spilling the goods on the way to the range and will allow for more firings since there won't be water to spill out of the hole. I kinda like the idea, just need to see if it works as advertised. I'll get time to do it, hopefully, after I get her transferred to a long term care facility. There are only 8 such facilities in the state that will take comatose patients with tracheotomies on a ventilator and medicaid doesn't want to cover her, so I'm seeing a lawyer to chat about it tomorrow and try to get it done without having to sell out and live in my van or a tent or something. :rolleyes: They told me medicare doesn't cover enough of the cost and they wanted over 500 bucks a DAY for her care. Well, I had a danged good paying job before I retired and I NEVER made that kind of money. I ain't Bill Gates. They have a vacancy in Lubbock, 500 mile drive for me, so when I get her up there, I won't be going to see her twice a week and I'll have more time. Right now, I'm battling the gubment and the red tape and trying to find time and energy to clear some of the backlog out of my shop..
 
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hmmm....

Didn't I just hear Obama boasting how his health care reform already helps millions of Americans? My faith in The Great One is beginning to fade....

I'm really sorry to hear about your troubles. I wish your wife a speedy and full recovery.

All the best,

Batjka
 
Sorry to hear of the struggle in getting your wife the care she needs... as if the affliction wasn't enough to be dealing with !!! Prayers for you and her... and for a full/quick recovery.
 
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